Late landing clearance
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Late landing clearance
Hello
In this video, at 01:48, the ATCO tells the Delta pilot to expect a late landing clearance. The pilot reads back the landing clearance about one second before the main gear touches down!
Assuming that the landing clearance is indeed for the aircraft we see landing, I was wondering if a professional could help answer the following:
- are late landing clearances often given this close to touchdown?
- if the pilot had not received the landing clearance, would he have had to go-around even at that height?
- to perform the go-around at that stage, would the wheels most likely have made contact?
Please note: I am not asking about the early go-around at the start of the video.
Thanks as always for your comments.
Nick
In this video, at 01:48, the ATCO tells the Delta pilot to expect a late landing clearance. The pilot reads back the landing clearance about one second before the main gear touches down!
Assuming that the landing clearance is indeed for the aircraft we see landing, I was wondering if a professional could help answer the following:
- are late landing clearances often given this close to touchdown?
- if the pilot had not received the landing clearance, would he have had to go-around even at that height?
- to perform the go-around at that stage, would the wheels most likely have made contact?
Please note: I am not asking about the early go-around at the start of the video.
Thanks as always for your comments.
Nick
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Late landing clearances such as this one are quite common, especially at busy airfields. They are often heard at Heathrow for example. As noted in the video clip, if possible the controller might inform the pilots to expect a late landing clearance and the reason why in order that they don't do a go-around if not necessary. Typically the late clearance will be due to waiting for an aircraft or checker performing a runway inspection to vacate the runway.
Although I work in the En-route centre, on visits to various towers I've often heard the controller drag out their speech, such as slowly saying the surface wind before actually giving the landing clearance. This gives the pilots a heads-up that they will be cleared to land, again reducing the likelihood of initiating a go-around.
Although not common, it is not unusual for the wheels to touch the runway whilst undertaking a go-around.
Although I work in the En-route centre, on visits to various towers I've often heard the controller drag out their speech, such as slowly saying the surface wind before actually giving the landing clearance. This gives the pilots a heads-up that they will be cleared to land, again reducing the likelihood of initiating a go-around.
Although not common, it is not unusual for the wheels to touch the runway whilst undertaking a go-around.
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I've often heard the controller drag out their speech, such as slowly saying the surface wind before actually giving the landing clearance.
I understand that warning the pilots they are going to receive a late landing clearance is helpful, but if (for whatever reason) the controller does not then issue it, I take it a go-around is mandatory so as not to land illegally (recent US airport incidents aside
)? The video shows an example of how tightly things can be done, but this can't always be the case...?
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Why would they do that?
My personal 'limit' for a last minute g/a was 50', during which, as joft says, the wheels may well touch. If not received, normally yes, a g/a would be mandatory.
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They drag out the transmission so as not be blocked by another call. If you've got 10 seconds to give a late landing clearance you don't want someone coming on frequency with their life story.
If the pilot does not receive a further transmission he should go-around. However, when a pilot is warned to expect a late landing clearance he will either get it or be instructed to go-around.
If the pilot does not receive a further transmission he should go-around. However, when a pilot is warned to expect a late landing clearance he will either get it or be instructed to go-around.
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- are late landing clearances often given this close to touchdown?
YES - I would also say that in your video clip the weather is good, the pilot is aware of late landing clearance due to previous aircraft waiting to exit the runway, and he/she can see that aircraft so will see when it is clear. So in that case it makes sense for the Delta to continue, and the landing clearance was indeed received before the wheels touched down. If it was obvious the previous aircraft was not going to make the exit then the pilot of the following aircraft would probably make the decision and go around earlier.
- if the pilot had not received the landing clearance, would he have had to go-around even at that height?
Yes of course - no pilot is going to land on a runway which is blocked by another aircraft! Aircraft can go-around even if the wheels touch. Obviously the earlier the better, and as I said above, if they can see there is an aircraft on the runway still then they'd go around earlier.
- to perform the go-around at that stage, would the wheels most likely have made contact?
They may have done. Doesn't matter, as long as the go-around has been initiated.
On every landing pilots are always ready for a go-around. We brief it, and we are always "go" minded. If we get a landing great, if not, we are prepared for a go-around. It happens.
YES - I would also say that in your video clip the weather is good, the pilot is aware of late landing clearance due to previous aircraft waiting to exit the runway, and he/she can see that aircraft so will see when it is clear. So in that case it makes sense for the Delta to continue, and the landing clearance was indeed received before the wheels touched down. If it was obvious the previous aircraft was not going to make the exit then the pilot of the following aircraft would probably make the decision and go around earlier.
- if the pilot had not received the landing clearance, would he have had to go-around even at that height?
Yes of course - no pilot is going to land on a runway which is blocked by another aircraft! Aircraft can go-around even if the wheels touch. Obviously the earlier the better, and as I said above, if they can see there is an aircraft on the runway still then they'd go around earlier.
- to perform the go-around at that stage, would the wheels most likely have made contact?
They may have done. Doesn't matter, as long as the go-around has been initiated.
On every landing pilots are always ready for a go-around. We brief it, and we are always "go" minded. If we get a landing great, if not, we are prepared for a go-around. It happens.
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And as extraneous information, the CAA have recently issued a "Supplementary Information" notice regarding cancellation of Landing Clearances (but when they expect a late clearance to land to be issued) - feel free to read this SI for CAP 493 below......
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493S...tion201102.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493S...tion201102.pdf
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The pilot reads back the landing clearance about one second before the main gear touches down!
Remember the hump on 23R hides the wheels making contact with the ground.Anyway - from a pilot's point of view, really no big deal. At LGW we often got the landing clearance below 200'...............
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Assurances in from a MAN controller that the audio is out of synch with the reality. Obviously an entirely accidental technical hitch of course - surely no one would want to hype up such a video?
Rob
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Never had a "landing after..or..after the departing" at LGW in 7 years of being based there, must be just lucky
I now work at the same place as White Knight..and I'd say a 200ft Landing clearance is usual at LHR as well.
And what BOAC said if I get the "expect late...." 50ft is my personal cutoff. Never usually a prob at LHR and LGW as IMHO they are by some considerable margin the best controllers in the world.
I now work at the same place as White Knight..and I'd say a 200ft Landing clearance is usual at LHR as well.
And what BOAC said
if I get the "expect late...." 50ft is my personal cutoff. Never usually a prob at LHR and LGW as IMHO they are by some considerable margin the best controllers in the world.
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<<Never usually a prob at LHR and LGW as IMHO they are by some considerable margin the best controllers in the world.>>
I'm retired now but on behalf of myself and my ex-colleagues, thank you Sir.
I'm retired now but on behalf of myself and my ex-colleagues, thank you Sir.
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But he gets the clearance about 8 seconds before touchdown Remember the hump on 23R hides the wheels making contact with the ground.
Rob - thanks for that. Modifying videos = never helpful.
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I remember many years ago at MAN, before there were two runways, a departure a/c (or two) was inserted between each arrival. During busy periods it was not uncommon for the commencement of the transmission issuing the landing clearance to commence when the a/c had passed over the fence at Ringway Road.
This was when the runway was simply 24. I don’t' know what height the a/c were when they received the words 'clear to land' but I am sure someone else will comment.
Looking at the video there appears to have been 'plenty of time' compared with what happened regularly years ago.
Remember the transmission can be dragged out as long as necessary; Bigaircraft 321 the surface wind is 270 degrees 7 knots, please take the second rapid exit, and ignore the first, departing aircraft has just lifted off, runway 24 clear to land. !!
oops forgot to mention the captains name.
This was when the runway was simply 24. I don’t' know what height the a/c were when they received the words 'clear to land' but I am sure someone else will comment.
Looking at the video there appears to have been 'plenty of time' compared with what happened regularly years ago.
Remember the transmission can be dragged out as long as necessary; Bigaircraft 321 the surface wind is 270 degrees 7 knots, please take the second rapid exit, and ignore the first, departing aircraft has just lifted off, runway 24 clear to land. !!
oops forgot to mention the captains name.