Positioning crew in uniform on single-class aircraft
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Positioning crew in uniform on single-class aircraft
Good afternoon
This is a bit of a left-field question, but here goes:
On the legacy carriers, I imagine positioning crews get to enjoy the peace and quiet in business class and can hide from passengers the other side of the curtain.
But how does it works when crews position in uniform on airlines with only one class? I'm thinking Orange and Harps, for example.
Is the first row reserved for the positioning crew?
Do they board the aircraft with the operating crew, i.e. bypass the departure gate etc. ?
Do the cabin crew get questions such as 'why is the pilot sitting in the cabin'?
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions (like these!)
Thanks.
This is a bit of a left-field question, but here goes:
On the legacy carriers, I imagine positioning crews get to enjoy the peace and quiet in business class and can hide from passengers the other side of the curtain.
But how does it works when crews position in uniform on airlines with only one class? I'm thinking Orange and Harps, for example.
Is the first row reserved for the positioning crew?
Do they board the aircraft with the operating crew, i.e. bypass the departure gate etc. ?
Do the cabin crew get questions such as 'why is the pilot sitting in the cabin'?
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions (like these!)
Thanks.
Last edited by Nicholas49; 14th Apr 2011 at 16:51.
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On the legacy carriers, I imagine positioning crews get to enjoy the peace and quiet in business/first class and can hide from passengers the other side of the curtain.
Mostly but not always - I have known the jump seat for 4 hours.......
But how does it works when crews position in uniform on airlines with only one class? I'm thinking Orange and Harps here.
Do they sit in the first row?
Again, sometimes, sometimes the rear row. My last company (very bright lot) once spread us all through the cabin to 'rest' on a pos flight across the Atlantic before operating back........................once.
Do the cabin crew get questions such as 'why is the pilot sitting in the cabin'?
Yes and the pilots. It is hugely amusing the 8th time around
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions (like these!)
Yes and you are right.
Mostly but not always - I have known the jump seat for 4 hours.......
But how does it works when crews position in uniform on airlines with only one class? I'm thinking Orange and Harps here.
Do they sit in the first row?
Again, sometimes, sometimes the rear row. My last company (very bright lot) once spread us all through the cabin to 'rest' on a pos flight across the Atlantic before operating back........................once.
Do the cabin crew get questions such as 'why is the pilot sitting in the cabin'?
Yes and the pilots. It is hugely amusing the 8th time around
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions (like these!)
Yes and you are right.
No carrier (except maybe the US legacies) would put the crew in F if they could sell all the seats there. There are plenty of recorded cases of Chief Execs moving back to economy when F is sold out.
I can remember, quite some years ago, travelling Y on a British Airways 747 from London to Los Angeles. Seated in a row of four in the centre section were a full 747 crew, in uniform. Turned out, only on close scrutiny of their badges, that they were not BA, but from MEA, travelling from Beirut to California to pick up an aircraft that had been on D check. But to the passengers around them, some of whom plied them with questions, and received very polite answers from the captain, they probabaly thought they were BA.
I can remember, quite some years ago, travelling Y on a British Airways 747 from London to Los Angeles. Seated in a row of four in the centre section were a full 747 crew, in uniform. Turned out, only on close scrutiny of their badges, that they were not BA, but from MEA, travelling from Beirut to California to pick up an aircraft that had been on D check. But to the passengers around them, some of whom plied them with questions, and received very polite answers from the captain, they probabaly thought they were BA.
From experience, business class doesn't always happen and on the shuttle, you're with anyone else anyway.
With Easyjet, positioning crew check in as per normal but are/will be issued with speedyboarding cards. Commuters with Easyjet need special permission and they will present themselves at the aircraft, usually after proceeding through staff search.
With Easyjet, positioning crew check in as per normal but are/will be issued with speedyboarding cards. Commuters with Easyjet need special permission and they will present themselves at the aircraft, usually after proceeding through staff search.
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OK, so not First class then. Post amended.
easyflyer - are you saying that if you are easyJet positioning crew, you go through check-in, security and to the gate with the regular passengers, whereas if you are positioning on easyJet but work for another airline (if that's what 'commuters with easyJet' means), you get to go through the staff channels? Surely not?
easyflyer - are you saying that if you are easyJet positioning crew, you go through check-in, security and to the gate with the regular passengers, whereas if you are positioning on easyJet but work for another airline (if that's what 'commuters with easyJet' means), you get to go through the staff channels? Surely not?
No, commuter travel within Easyjet is for those company crew members who commute to/from base. They are issued with a document to varify they are part of the commuter programme and they present themselves at the a/c, usually via staff channel, and if there are spare seats they travel. The commuter programme allows free travel (as opposed to staff travel).
Commuter travel is different to easyjet positioning whereby you are a passenger.
Commuter travel is different to easyjet positioning whereby you are a passenger.
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I've positioned numerous times, usually post-flight, on another carrier. I get off my flight, have to exit back to arrivals, check in for the positioning flight just the same as a regular passenger, then follow standard passenger routes.
We don't get special treatment or reserved seats, although usually cabin crew on other carriers are sympathetic and will give us an empty row at front or back if there is one. But I have done numerous flights in uniform sat next to a spotter!!! I usually try and pretend I am engrossed in my newspaper and then my ipod, but doesn't always work. Nothing like doing a 12 hour duty and then spending the next hour answering spotters questions about flying......
I try and be polite, but it does get a bit tiring when you've been up for 16 hours, done a long duty day and now trying to get back home and have to "talk shop" some more....
We don't get special treatment or reserved seats, although usually cabin crew on other carriers are sympathetic and will give us an empty row at front or back if there is one. But I have done numerous flights in uniform sat next to a spotter!!! I usually try and pretend I am engrossed in my newspaper and then my ipod, but doesn't always work. Nothing like doing a 12 hour duty and then spending the next hour answering spotters questions about flying......
I try and be polite, but it does get a bit tiring when you've been up for 16 hours, done a long duty day and now trying to get back home and have to "talk shop" some more....
Nothing like doing a 12 hour duty and then spending the next hour answering spotters questions about flying......I try and be polite, but it does get a bit tiring when you've been up for 16 hours, done a long duty day and now trying to get back home and have to "talk shop" some more....
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Ah no, I think this is possibly my first visit ever to Spotters Corner!!! And I've not been at work for a while....!!! Bit different to getting up at 3am and having to answer questions at 7pm having done a couple of flights, gone through security again and sitting on a plane next to someone who you can't escape from!!!!
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Did the last leg of a 23 hour return trip last week, and a CC member sat next to me (well, apart from the out of service seat between us) for the trip back.
She had been on a training course, and talked to the working CC from the second she got on, to the second WE got off and left her to it. Subject matter was how to work the system to their own advantage, avoiding early stand bys and weekend rotors, and griping generally about her lot. Trust me this was non stop for over an hour, and when we got off the guy from over the aisle said "jeez, does she never stop to take a breath".
I sit up front for a bit of peace and quiet, but this was non stop moaning and drivel about her "lot", in a job that a large number of people would kill for.
When it's uniformed pilots sitting in the spare seats up front, they are the worst offenders for not turning off their mobiles / blackberrys etc, and trying to hide the fact they are using them by holding them between their outer leg and the cabin wall.
2 of my pet hates. Rant mode off !
She had been on a training course, and talked to the working CC from the second she got on, to the second WE got off and left her to it. Subject matter was how to work the system to their own advantage, avoiding early stand bys and weekend rotors, and griping generally about her lot. Trust me this was non stop for over an hour, and when we got off the guy from over the aisle said "jeez, does she never stop to take a breath".
I sit up front for a bit of peace and quiet, but this was non stop moaning and drivel about her "lot", in a job that a large number of people would kill for.
When it's uniformed pilots sitting in the spare seats up front, they are the worst offenders for not turning off their mobiles / blackberrys etc, and trying to hide the fact they are using them by holding them between their outer leg and the cabin wall.
2 of my pet hates. Rant mode off !
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The solution to being able to switch off/relax/have a beer when positioning after a long flying day is simply to take off the gold regalia and throw a jumper over your shirt, tuck your similarly-adorned blazer wrists in to their respective pockets and job done - you're a smart/casually dressed passenger, indistinguishable from the rest.
Easy...surely?
Easy...surely?
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Recently sat near an Arik Air Captain (in uniform) who was positioning on an Air France flight. Across the aisle from us was a lady who was a very nervous flyer, and was in tears before take off she was so terrified. The positioning pilot talked to her for an hour, calming her and explaining what every squeak and jolt meant, giving her a complete run down on the principles of flight and aerodynamics. She was either bored senseless or completely comforted, as by the time we got off, she had forgotten her fear and thanked him for making her flight bearable. Nice guy.
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easyflyer83 - OK, I see what you mean now. That makes sense.
WingoWango - that's the attitude I would be hoping for!
Airbus Girl - I entirely understand why that could be tedious at the end of a long day, especially if you have to field daft questions. But you may just be the first 'real-life' pilot that passenger has ever met, especially in the days of locked flight deck doors and quick turnarounds. And you might end up sitting next to someone who'll lean across and ask whether you think this is a CAT II or CAT III approach.
PS: Welcome to Spotters' Corner. Plenty of intelligent questions asked here.
As a follow-up question, if you are positioning to operate a flight/flights later in the day, are you 'on duty' with the FTL clock ticking? Or does it count as rest just as if you spent the morning at home?
WingoWango - that's the attitude I would be hoping for!
Airbus Girl - I entirely understand why that could be tedious at the end of a long day, especially if you have to field daft questions. But you may just be the first 'real-life' pilot that passenger has ever met, especially in the days of locked flight deck doors and quick turnarounds. And you might end up sitting next to someone who'll lean across and ask whether you think this is a CAT II or CAT III approach.
PS: Welcome to Spotters' Corner. Plenty of intelligent questions asked here.
As a follow-up question, if you are positioning to operate a flight/flights later in the day, are you 'on duty' with the FTL clock ticking? Or does it count as rest just as if you spent the morning at home?
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If positioning directly before a flight (which does happen quite a bit, although for me its usually by taxi or coach) then the clock starts ticking when you depart your base. So yes, you are on duty in that case. However a positioning journey does not count as a "sector". Flight time limitations are based on the number of sectors you fly in a day. If it is after your flight then it is not part of your flight duty period.
Tezzer - I don't know any pilots who keep their phones on in flight - most pilots I know have iphones and put them on Airplane Mode when airborne.
Bucket and spade, completely agree, I normally carry spare clothes in my flight bag but there are occasions (quite often actually) where we are scheduled such tight times between our flight's arrival and getting onto the positioning flight that there just isn't time. I usually just about manage to get the epaulettes off, but even then its pretty obvious I'm a pilot.
Tezzer - I don't know any pilots who keep their phones on in flight - most pilots I know have iphones and put them on Airplane Mode when airborne.
Bucket and spade, completely agree, I normally carry spare clothes in my flight bag but there are occasions (quite often actually) where we are scheduled such tight times between our flight's arrival and getting onto the positioning flight that there just isn't time. I usually just about manage to get the epaulettes off, but even then its pretty obvious I'm a pilot.
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When we reposition most of the time we are in uniform because we are positioning to immediately fly or we just finished flying and are positioning in preparation for the next day. If we are done for the day some will chose to change out of the uniform.
As far as business class or first class is concerned, the company really doesn’t think of us as royalty, we are just business tools. The company would stuff us in with the luggage, dogs and cats in the cargo compartment if they could get away with it to sell the seat we occupy. Thankfully, because we are represented by a union, we have a contractual right to a first class seat if it is unoccupied. First class is almost always full, so it becomes a mute point.
For what it is worth I do not think lowly of our passengers, I am glad to share a row with just about anybody and answer their questions (for the same reason I post on this forum-I enjoy aviation and like learning and answering questions). Collectively passengers pay my wages. About reserved rows, the gate agent will usually reserve an exit row for us, but that is not a requirement. They do the best they can.
Personally I think the gate agent has the toughest job in the industry, followed by cabin crew. I try to minimize any demands I place on them as a courtesy.
Yes we hear the same questions all the time.
Not only are we on flight duty time when we are positioning (FTL clock ticking), we are getting paid 100% of what we would be getting if we were flying. Again that is due to a strong union. To some this may seem overly generous; however it is important to give the company a strong incentive to minimize the unproductive use of its pilots by deadheading them throughout the system. Otherwise you would get much more of the nonsense, stated earlier by another poster, where his/her company deadheaded them on a long flight across the Atlantic, only to turn them around and have them immediately fly back.
You don’t want your pilots mind-numbed and fatigued then flying a difficult approach on the back side of the body clock having been up for 24-sometining hours. If pilots don’t put an end to such scheduling nonsense, they we have nobody else to blame, when creative minds in the accounting department come up with really efficient schedules (meanwhile they go home after a 8 day) that look really good on paper but shred human beings to pieces. There is a difference between legal and safe. And there is also featherbedding, overly generous abuses. Sometimes a fine line exists between the definitions. Unequivocally however; simply being a legal flight duty time assignment is not necessarily safe. That point of view is often missing.
Is the first row reserved for the positioning crew?
For what it is worth I do not think lowly of our passengers, I am glad to share a row with just about anybody and answer their questions (for the same reason I post on this forum-I enjoy aviation and like learning and answering questions). Collectively passengers pay my wages. About reserved rows, the gate agent will usually reserve an exit row for us, but that is not a requirement. They do the best they can.
Personally I think the gate agent has the toughest job in the industry, followed by cabin crew. I try to minimize any demands I place on them as a courtesy.
Do the cabin crew get questions such as 'why is the pilot sitting in the cabin'?
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions
Could a regular passenger end up sitting next to a captain in uniform? (I pity the poor guy if he has to answer an enthusiast's questions
Yes we hear the same questions all the time.
if you are positioning to operate a flight/flights later in the day, are you 'on duty' with the FTL clock ticking? Or does it count as rest just as if you spent the morning at home?
You don’t want your pilots mind-numbed and fatigued then flying a difficult approach on the back side of the body clock having been up for 24-sometining hours. If pilots don’t put an end to such scheduling nonsense, they we have nobody else to blame, when creative minds in the accounting department come up with really efficient schedules (meanwhile they go home after a 8 day) that look really good on paper but shred human beings to pieces. There is a difference between legal and safe. And there is also featherbedding, overly generous abuses. Sometimes a fine line exists between the definitions. Unequivocally however; simply being a legal flight duty time assignment is not necessarily safe. That point of view is often missing.
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So yes, you are on duty in that case.
