Engine failure at rotation
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Nick, any trainer worth his or her salt wouldn't fail your entire sim check because you muffed up a V1 cut twice. What should happen is a bit of time spent analysing and talking through the correct process and then having another go, hopefully by then you'll have settled down a bit and you'll be okay the next time. Yep it'll go down as a repeated item but not a fail. That's why we call it training and not chopping.
Personally I've observed at least a dozen attempts at OEI ILS/GA's in one sim session by one F/O.
Unfortunately there are some 'Choppers' out there whose only pleasure in life is to fail people for such things as flying 1 knot too slow or fast. Sad.
Personally I've observed at least a dozen attempts at OEI ILS/GA's in one sim session by one F/O.
Unfortunately there are some 'Choppers' out there whose only pleasure in life is to fail people for such things as flying 1 knot too slow or fast. Sad.
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Thanks for that, LSM.
Does a simulator session normally involve practising these non-standard manoeuvres before you are actually examined on your ability to carry them out? How long do the sessions normally last? Are you taken off the line for a couple of days? Is there a way a nervous/under-confident/inexperienced pilot can prepare for the simulator sessions? For example, using his/her days off to rent one out from one of those private companies that offer sessions to the public? Or is that 'not the done thing'?
A cousin of mine is a professional pilot. When he explained the whole six-monthly simulator thing to me, I was really surprised by what is expected from line pilots. It sounds very demanding. Given the presumably tight resources and limited time for training (especially in these days of austerity), plus the fact that the simulator is most likely the only place you'll perform some of those non-standard procedures, it's a tall order. There is certainly no equivalent of re-testing throughout a career in other professions such as mine (legal).
Does a simulator session normally involve practising these non-standard manoeuvres before you are actually examined on your ability to carry them out? How long do the sessions normally last? Are you taken off the line for a couple of days? Is there a way a nervous/under-confident/inexperienced pilot can prepare for the simulator sessions? For example, using his/her days off to rent one out from one of those private companies that offer sessions to the public? Or is that 'not the done thing'?
A cousin of mine is a professional pilot. When he explained the whole six-monthly simulator thing to me, I was really surprised by what is expected from line pilots. It sounds very demanding. Given the presumably tight resources and limited time for training (especially in these days of austerity), plus the fact that the simulator is most likely the only place you'll perform some of those non-standard procedures, it's a tall order. There is certainly no equivalent of re-testing throughout a career in other professions such as mine (legal).
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Not practicing per se but the onus is on us to ensure that we are as prepared as we can be. Heads in books is really all we can do before a sim. Make sure you know the numbers, the profiles and the vital actions.
But no, no pre sim sim.
In my last airline we used to just get in and get on with it. The required V1 cut, OEI ILS and GA was carried out as a non jeopardy exercise. So basically, if you effed it up it wouldn't count as anything except a practice but if you managed it all to the required standard then it counted as a pass. Seemed like a good idea as it effectively removed any pressure you might feel.
The time in the 'box' is usually 4 hours with a fag/coffee break after 2 hours. About an hour and a half brief beforehand and debriefing in the motor on the way to the hotel bar.
It rarely happens but yes you will be grounded if you don't pass the required exercises. I've only seen it happen once but the guy was back in the sim within a few days and back on line straight after that.
I should clarify that you will fail a sim session if you repeatedly muck up one particular exercise and you actually run out of time to keep having a go. But all the trainers I've had the pleasure of have tried their very best to get you to pass.
Hope that makes sense, I'm rushing!
But no, no pre sim sim.
In my last airline we used to just get in and get on with it. The required V1 cut, OEI ILS and GA was carried out as a non jeopardy exercise. So basically, if you effed it up it wouldn't count as anything except a practice but if you managed it all to the required standard then it counted as a pass. Seemed like a good idea as it effectively removed any pressure you might feel.
The time in the 'box' is usually 4 hours with a fag/coffee break after 2 hours. About an hour and a half brief beforehand and debriefing in the motor on the way to the hotel bar.
It rarely happens but yes you will be grounded if you don't pass the required exercises. I've only seen it happen once but the guy was back in the sim within a few days and back on line straight after that.
I should clarify that you will fail a sim session if you repeatedly muck up one particular exercise and you actually run out of time to keep having a go. But all the trainers I've had the pleasure of have tried their very best to get you to pass.
Hope that makes sense, I'm rushing!
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Nicholas49, we don't have a practice before being tested because if you last did your sim 5.5 months ago and you were in the aircraft and you had an engine failure at V1 you are still expected to be able to deal with it safely!!!! Not much use cocking it up and saying "oh but if I'd only had a chance to practice it beforehand"!!!!
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Airbus Girl - yes, I take your point! Clearly, you need to be able to do it on the line between sim checks, otherwise what's the point?
I suppose what I was driving at is that the procedures and manoevres you train for / are assessed on in the simulator are non-standard by their very nature, most of which you will not encounter on the line, probably throughout your whole career (except go-arounds, perhaps?). And yet you are expected to get it right. If you are an experienced pilot, you have done loads of six-monthly simulator checks, so it's perhaps not such a big deal. If you have recently left flying school, you probably spent a lot of time practising it even if you are 'fresh'. But if you're somewhere in between the two, the only time you do it is in the simulator. And four hours, as LSM says, doesn't seem all that long.
It's like a surgeon performing routine after routine operation for six months, then spending one day doing a highly specialised operation that he last performed six months, but is nevertheless expected to get right.
Anyway, I think the point I am making is, hats off to you guys.
I suppose what I was driving at is that the procedures and manoevres you train for / are assessed on in the simulator are non-standard by their very nature, most of which you will not encounter on the line, probably throughout your whole career (except go-arounds, perhaps?). And yet you are expected to get it right. If you are an experienced pilot, you have done loads of six-monthly simulator checks, so it's perhaps not such a big deal. If you have recently left flying school, you probably spent a lot of time practising it even if you are 'fresh'. But if you're somewhere in between the two, the only time you do it is in the simulator. And four hours, as LSM says, doesn't seem all that long.
It's like a surgeon performing routine after routine operation for six months, then spending one day doing a highly specialised operation that he last performed six months, but is nevertheless expected to get right.
Anyway, I think the point I am making is, hats off to you guys.
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Couple of comments -
I currently fly the Boeing 737 and it would be even more docile with less pilot pilot workload and more performance should the same occur
Mr Boeing's 737 is a pussycat at "normal" speed schedules.
If you would like to have your eyes opened a tad to the tiger in the pussycat, might I suggest that you ask the instructor, in your next session, to give you a min weight, min speed schedule, max aft CG engine seizure with the failure cutting in during the rotation.
If the box is anywhere near realistic you might come back with a different tale to tell. Even better ask him/her to put in the opposite end ILS and try back tracking the localiser for the departure.
Generally, it only takes a few practice goes after discussion to get on top of the gyrations for an experienced pilot. This is the reason one ought not do ferry flights without some thought as to what speed schedule you might use.
Then he asked about a three engine aircraft
. Can you lose two before the 4th segment or indeed at all before a safe level
It may vary with Type.
However, to be able to go beyond 90 minutes a 3-/4-engined aircraft must be able to continue with the cruise loss of a second engine. This was the reason that twins were not able to go off on long range flights remote from aerodromes until systems reliability improved to the point where ETOPS was able to be introduced.
The three holer, however, would not be expected to handle two failed engines during the early takeoff unless the gross weight were very low.
The story can be interesting with a second failure during takeoff. The 727 (although the memory has long since forgotten the actual numbers) could cope with a second failure provided you had enough height and time to
(a) descend while cleaning up and accelerating to around 200-210, as best I recall, and
(b) dump to the appropriate weight (long since lost from the memory) for one engine operating.
Then one could climb away ever so sedately.
No guarantees but a reasonable chance of success for a benign aerodrome. The sort of circumstances of interest would include flying through a flock of big birds and having bird strikes take out two motors. There is a standard saying to cover the situation where one loses all three but modesty precludes my relating that here.
I currently fly the Boeing 737 and it would be even more docile with less pilot pilot workload and more performance should the same occur
Mr Boeing's 737 is a pussycat at "normal" speed schedules.
If you would like to have your eyes opened a tad to the tiger in the pussycat, might I suggest that you ask the instructor, in your next session, to give you a min weight, min speed schedule, max aft CG engine seizure with the failure cutting in during the rotation.
If the box is anywhere near realistic you might come back with a different tale to tell. Even better ask him/her to put in the opposite end ILS and try back tracking the localiser for the departure.
Generally, it only takes a few practice goes after discussion to get on top of the gyrations for an experienced pilot. This is the reason one ought not do ferry flights without some thought as to what speed schedule you might use.
Then he asked about a three engine aircraft
. Can you lose two before the 4th segment or indeed at all before a safe levelIt may vary with Type.
However, to be able to go beyond 90 minutes a 3-/4-engined aircraft must be able to continue with the cruise loss of a second engine. This was the reason that twins were not able to go off on long range flights remote from aerodromes until systems reliability improved to the point where ETOPS was able to be introduced.
The three holer, however, would not be expected to handle two failed engines during the early takeoff unless the gross weight were very low.
The story can be interesting with a second failure during takeoff. The 727 (although the memory has long since forgotten the actual numbers) could cope with a second failure provided you had enough height and time to
(a) descend while cleaning up and accelerating to around 200-210, as best I recall, and
(b) dump to the appropriate weight (long since lost from the memory) for one engine operating.
Then one could climb away ever so sedately.
No guarantees but a reasonable chance of success for a benign aerodrome. The sort of circumstances of interest would include flying through a flock of big birds and having bird strikes take out two motors. There is a standard saying to cover the situation where one loses all three but modesty precludes my relating that here.
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Nicholas49, although we don't do specific procedures like engine failures on line, we do fly the aircraft every time we go to work. Most decent airline pilots will practice some manual flying whenever they get the chance, to keep their skills up, and also most pilots I know look at the books between sim checks, and run through scenarios in their head regularly. It is quite common to see pilots looking at manuals/ QRH during longer flights. There are a few procedures which you really should be current with, regardless of when you actually went in the sim to practice them, so that the actual procedure becomes second nature. Like a rapid depressurisation for one.
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might I suggest that you ask the instructor, in your next session, to give you a min weight, min speed schedule, max aft CG engine seizure with the failure cutting in during the rotation.
