"We are awaiting figures from London"
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"We are awaiting figures from London"
On BA 058 Mon we were lined up on CPT r/w 19 when the pilot said "Sorry, we are held awaiting some figures from London and will be delayed five minutes".
Because there was another aircraft behind us we had to clear the runway at the first exit and recommence the taxi.
Q - what "figures" was he talking about?
Because there was another aircraft behind us we had to clear the runway at the first exit and recommence the taxi.
Q - what "figures" was he talking about?
The loadsheet - ie take-off mass, etc so that the crew can calculate/check the take-off performance figures.
This is compiled by "Load Control" and transmitted to the aircraft while it is taxiing. Quite often in BA they are a bit slow.
This is compiled by "Load Control" and transmitted to the aircraft while it is taxiing. Quite often in BA they are a bit slow.
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Nothing unusual David. Happened a million times whilst I was at Heathrow. It usually occurs at holding point prior to entering the runway so pax know nothing..
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Is this SOP on all airlines?
Some airlines actually know what the payload is prior to doors closing, and have calculated the takeoff speeds and trim accordingly.
Therefore...no delay waiting for 'figures' at the end of the runway.
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The company I work for, Part of BA group, we use provisional load figures at the gate to work out take-off speeds, trim etc. When we taxi out we make a quick RT call to our handling agent to get our Final figures. This will include any last minute changes to bags, Passengers that that did not make the flight etc...
Last edited by RJ100; 19th Jan 2011 at 18:47.
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It usually occurs at holding point prior to entering the runway so pax know nothing..
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It is not a system which I thought was sensible and is all to do with the managements' paranoia at getting off chocks on schedule and b****r everyone else. It normally works ok, but unless there were mitigating circumstances if is simply bad Captaincy to block either the taxyway or especially the runway.
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At most large airfields there is usually plenty of room for such aircraft to hold whilst others carry on as normal..
BA should know better than to block ops like this...shameful.
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The US majors have been using this method much longer than BA. The phrase "we're waiting for the numbers" is common in the states.
Prior to push-back the crew calculate the take-off performance figures using the estimated Zero Fuel Weight. During the taxi the actual ZFW (taking into account 'no-shows' etc) is transmitted to the aircraft, generally via ACARS. If the actual ZFW is less than the planned ZFW then the crew use their calculated performance. However if the ZFW has gone up (very rare) then they have to recalculate the speeds.
Dave
Prior to push-back the crew calculate the take-off performance figures using the estimated Zero Fuel Weight. During the taxi the actual ZFW (taking into account 'no-shows' etc) is transmitted to the aircraft, generally via ACARS. If the actual ZFW is less than the planned ZFW then the crew use their calculated performance. However if the ZFW has gone up (very rare) then they have to recalculate the speeds.
Dave
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Can I ask: does this policy apply to all BA flights? Both long-haul and short-haul operations every day at all airports? Do they always push back not knowing the final figures?
yes, this system applies to all BA flights.
D
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Jr - it is fairly rare for there to be changes that need to be 'actioned' before departure, and there is nothing to 'stop' you 'stopping' while you sort things out if there are. Airmanship rules. Also the captain's right to INSIST on a final load-sheet although question would be 'asked'.
Indeed better to do it at the gate, but blinkered managers decided it is better to get off the gate promptly.and possibly delay take-off than to delay on stand for few minutes. 'Punctuality' is unfortunately assessed on 'departure' at major carriers, despite the fact that the paying guests probably simply want to arrive punctually. There can be great gnashing of teeth and renting of garments in the dispatch department if there is a delay.
The result of all this is seen at Capetown - on-time from the gate, late airborne and others inconvenienced - but the punctuality league....
.
Indeed better to do it at the gate, but blinkered managers decided it is better to get off the gate promptly.and possibly delay take-off than to delay on stand for few minutes. 'Punctuality' is unfortunately assessed on 'departure' at major carriers, despite the fact that the paying guests probably simply want to arrive punctually. There can be great gnashing of teeth and renting of garments in the dispatch department if there is a delay.
The result of all this is seen at Capetown - on-time from the gate, late airborne and others inconvenienced - but the punctuality league.....
This is what we do (we being a scheduled carrier flying the A319, 320 and 321):
On receiving the preliminary loadsheet at the gate, we work out the take-off speeds for a weight 800kg in excess of the preliminary loadsheet weight. When the final loadsheet appears during taxi, as long as the actual weight is less than our estimate + 800kg sum and the trim is almost the same, we leave all the figures input into the FMC as they are. Obviously, if the actual weight turned out to be more than 800kg more than the estimate, we would calculate new speeds but I can't remember that happening.
It only takes a few seconds to compare the new data with that already input so the risks of being distracted during taxi are insignificant. In any case, at our base you almost never get to the runway without having to stop at least once so there's plenty of time. I can count the number of times we've had to prompt someone for the final loadsheet on one hand.
I doubt it would be much safer to do it at the gate; there is always plenty going on in the last few minutes before departure and that can be distracting too.
On receiving the preliminary loadsheet at the gate, we work out the take-off speeds for a weight 800kg in excess of the preliminary loadsheet weight. When the final loadsheet appears during taxi, as long as the actual weight is less than our estimate + 800kg sum and the trim is almost the same, we leave all the figures input into the FMC as they are. Obviously, if the actual weight turned out to be more than 800kg more than the estimate, we would calculate new speeds but I can't remember that happening.
It only takes a few seconds to compare the new data with that already input so the risks of being distracted during taxi are insignificant. In any case, at our base you almost never get to the runway without having to stop at least once so there's plenty of time. I can count the number of times we've had to prompt someone for the final loadsheet on one hand.
I doubt it would be much safer to do it at the gate; there is always plenty going on in the last few minutes before departure and that can be distracting too.
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Seems Doug and I work with a similar system.
The main difference between us and BA is that our loadsheet is produced locally on the spot by the despatcher who is responsible for the flight. We tried a centralised load sheet system several years ago and found it very inconsistent in terms of reflecting any LMCs (last minute changes), and went back to the guy or girl on the gate doing it.
The main difference between us and BA is that our loadsheet is produced locally on the spot by the despatcher who is responsible for the flight. We tried a centralised load sheet system several years ago and found it very inconsistent in terms of reflecting any LMCs (last minute changes), and went back to the guy or girl on the gate doing it.
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(411A: I am fairly sure I already know your opinion )
We will always accept a delay at the gate for correct weight/trim sheet figures...none of this nonsese waiting for 'figures' from...somewhere else.
Local dispatch folks know the score...without fail.
After all, they are actually paid...why not use them to the fullest?
Local handling agents/dispatch personnel are positively worth their weight in...gold.
Swissport, especially, for our ops.
They are top-notch.
