CG problems - on the ground ? At the gate ?
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CG problems - on the ground ? At the gate ?
Anybody heard of this problem before?
I was on an Air Canada flight that landed at Toronto. While passengers were disembarking, some holdup occurred midships and the front half of the aircraft emptied while everyone in the back half stayed put. The Captain suddenly came on the PA and barked "Pax to the front, we have a CG problem". Of course, none of the passengers had a clue what he was talking about and no one paid any attention. The a stewardess came on and announced in plain English, "We have a centre of gravity problem, would the passengers please move to the front of the aircraft".
When we got off, we heard that the nosewheel had come off the ground by 2 or 3 feet and the aircraft was impacting the passenger ramp, with the possibility of fuselage damage.
I was on an Air Canada flight that landed at Toronto. While passengers were disembarking, some holdup occurred midships and the front half of the aircraft emptied while everyone in the back half stayed put. The Captain suddenly came on the PA and barked "Pax to the front, we have a CG problem". Of course, none of the passengers had a clue what he was talking about and no one paid any attention. The a stewardess came on and announced in plain English, "We have a centre of gravity problem, would the passengers please move to the front of the aircraft".
When we got off, we heard that the nosewheel had come off the ground by 2 or 3 feet and the aircraft was impacting the passenger ramp, with the possibility of fuselage damage.
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There was a story in Pilot years ago about a charter flight (757?) which landed at Gatwick to offload around half the passengers who all happened to be at the front. The First Office redistributed the remaining passengers, bound for Manchester, along the length of the cabin without explaining the reasons and returned to the flight deck. The SLF decided to return to their original seats, and the aircraft taxied out. The crew abandoned take off when the aircraft proved somewhat tail heavy! A second redistribution of pax took place and the aircraft flew safely to Manchester. The hole in the story was wouldn't the cabin crew have noticed and done something?
I think what Treadigraph might be referring to was an incident involving an A321.
The flight was a consolidation from Malaga(?) to Gatwick and Manchester. All the bags for Gatwick had been put in the forward hold and the Manchester bags in the aft hold. When the throttles were advanced for take-off from Gatwick the nose wheel lifted off the ground!
The flight was a consolidation from Malaga(?) to Gatwick and Manchester. All the bags for Gatwick had been put in the forward hold and the Manchester bags in the aft hold. When the throttles were advanced for take-off from Gatwick the nose wheel lifted off the ground!
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That does sound very like the one, Groundloop; perhaps an element of "Chinese Whispers" had intervened by the time I read the story... (And no one whispers as loudly as me 
)
)
Another example:
I was on a BA 748 from Glasgow to Stornoway. Sitting at the gate at Glasgow they started moving families with children to the front and more adults to the back.
Some time after arriving at Stornoway was in a newsagent and some local was complaining about the lack of the colour supplement in his Sunday paper. The newsagent replied that, although the papers had been loaded on the flight at Glasgow, the supplemements had been left behind as they were too heavy. Best place for them, in my opinion!
I was on a BA 748 from Glasgow to Stornoway. Sitting at the gate at Glasgow they started moving families with children to the front and more adults to the back.
Some time after arriving at Stornoway was in a newsagent and some local was complaining about the lack of the colour supplement in his Sunday paper. The newsagent replied that, although the papers had been loaded on the flight at Glasgow, the supplemements had been left behind as they were too heavy. Best place for them, in my opinion!
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Sort of on topic...
Going flying with a friend in a C172 many years ago. Aeroplane parked pointing uphill on a grassy slope, yours truly (14st+) in the back, two lightishweights up front.
For some reason mon Capitaine released the parking brake before he started the engine - as we started to gently roll backwards towards the club house, he anxiously jabbed the brakes and we very nearly ground the rudder into the dirt.
Going flying with a friend in a C172 many years ago. Aeroplane parked pointing uphill on a grassy slope, yours truly (14st+) in the back, two lightishweights up front.
For some reason mon Capitaine released the parking brake before he started the engine - as we started to gently roll backwards towards the club house, he anxiously jabbed the brakes and we very nearly ground the rudder into the dirt.
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treadigraph
Did your pilot check the weight and balance. The reason that I ask is that several years ago I was a member of a group that owned a four seat aircraft. Before i carried a passenger I asked to borrow the weight and balance charts for the aircraft.
It was impossible to check them, as the datum had been moved without a corresponding adjustment of the figures, and they made no sense. The chairman of the group wasn't worried and said "well nobody checks them anyway".
I sold my share in the aircraft (after ensuring that the charts were corrected). A few months later the aircraft crashed on take-off (two adults in rear seat, child plus pilot in front seats). Fortunately the aircraft pitched up and stalled a few feet off the ground and they all survived, but the aircraft is no more.
Dave
Did your pilot check the weight and balance. The reason that I ask is that several years ago I was a member of a group that owned a four seat aircraft. Before i carried a passenger I asked to borrow the weight and balance charts for the aircraft.
It was impossible to check them, as the datum had been moved without a corresponding adjustment of the figures, and they made no sense. The chairman of the group wasn't worried and said "well nobody checks them anyway".
I sold my share in the aircraft (after ensuring that the charts were corrected). A few months later the aircraft crashed on take-off (two adults in rear seat, child plus pilot in front seats). Fortunately the aircraft pitched up and stalled a few feet off the ground and they all survived, but the aircraft is no more.
Dave
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Hi Dave
I should think so, he spent quite a few minutes going through things with the CFI - I think he was fairly new there at the time. The other two probably weighed about 11st each - no idea how much fuel we had, no baggage though.
Certainly it (and he) flew quite nicely (as much as I could tell from the rear) and got airborne and climbed at a reasonable clip.
I should think so, he spent quite a few minutes going through things with the CFI - I think he was fairly new there at the time. The other two probably weighed about 11st each - no idea how much fuel we had, no baggage though.
Certainly it (and he) flew quite nicely (as much as I could tell from the rear) and got airborne and climbed at a reasonable clip.
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I think what Treadigraph might be referring to was an incident involving an A321.
The flight was a consolidation from Malaga(?) to Gatwick and Manchester. All the bags for Gatwick had been put in the forward hold and the Manchester bags in the aft hold. When the throttles were advanced for take-off from Gatwick the nose wheel lifted off the ground!
The flight was a consolidation from Malaga(?) to Gatwick and Manchester. All the bags for Gatwick had been put in the forward hold and the Manchester bags in the aft hold. When the throttles were advanced for take-off from Gatwick the nose wheel lifted off the ground!
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It does happen saw a CTA caravelle on its tail at LGW. Also when loading 707 or DC8 freighters pallets where not moved fully down the cabin only one position at a time to keep weight at the front. Still around today you will see some ATR 72s will put a tail post on as soon as on ramp before disembarking pax.
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C of G
The Douglas DC4/C54 skymaster, Argonaut, IL14-16&18 and the HP Hermes come to mind, They had a stick placed under the tail skid to stop it becoming a "taildragger" when stationery, May be that stick should be brought back! Also IL62. The VC10 off loads at the front?
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Nothing new about this sort of problem
(a) major concern in the freighter world, especially when loading/unloading cans
(b) for freighters, tailstand pogo stick is near stock standard
(c) many maintenance operations routinely use a tail stand for major maintenance to preclude unscheduled aircraft begging
(d) misloaded aircraft in operations have killed many folk over the years.
(e) ignorance is very sad when the work required is so trivially simple.
(f) as we started to gently roll backwards towards the club house, he anxiously jabbed the brakes and we very nearly ground the rudder into the dirt
Absolutely standard SOP. If the aircraft is going backwards, the brakes are OFF LIMITS lest it sit on its tail .. one stops the motion with thrust, ALWAYS. Then again, on my Electra endorsement, the then Fleet Captain demonstrated a three-point turn on the taxiway during the first session. Most impressive.
(a) major concern in the freighter world, especially when loading/unloading cans
(b) for freighters, tailstand pogo stick is near stock standard
(c) many maintenance operations routinely use a tail stand for major maintenance to preclude unscheduled aircraft begging
(d) misloaded aircraft in operations have killed many folk over the years.
(e) ignorance is very sad when the work required is so trivially simple.
(f) as we started to gently roll backwards towards the club house, he anxiously jabbed the brakes and we very nearly ground the rudder into the dirt
Absolutely standard SOP. If the aircraft is going backwards, the brakes are OFF LIMITS lest it sit on its tail .. one stops the motion with thrust, ALWAYS. Then again, on my Electra endorsement, the then Fleet Captain demonstrated a three-point turn on the taxiway during the first session. Most impressive.
Skyle.
I have had the same thing happen to me. I bet the aircraft was a B747 - which tend to be quite light on the nosewheel at the best of times.
My case was deplaning the pax at Boston logan. Immigration used to be very slow there and only half the passengers were let off first - the front half. In the meantime, the loaders started to unload the front holds. We felt a lurch and the aircraft went into 'airborne mode' indicating it was airborne as the weight had come off the nosewheel extending the oleo enough to break the weight on ground microswitch. We realised immediately what was happening and both of us went or the PA handset. The other guy got there first and put out the ''Everyone to the front - NOW!'' call.
It was a brand new 744 and tail tip-ups can write off the aircraft. A lucky escape. 747 freighters nearly always have a tail stand inserted, or the noseleg tied to the ground while unloading. Or this can happen!
I have had the same thing happen to me. I bet the aircraft was a B747 - which tend to be quite light on the nosewheel at the best of times.
My case was deplaning the pax at Boston logan. Immigration used to be very slow there and only half the passengers were let off first - the front half. In the meantime, the loaders started to unload the front holds. We felt a lurch and the aircraft went into 'airborne mode' indicating it was airborne as the weight had come off the nosewheel extending the oleo enough to break the weight on ground microswitch. We realised immediately what was happening and both of us went or the PA handset. The other guy got there first and put out the ''Everyone to the front - NOW!'' call.
It was a brand new 744 and tail tip-ups can write off the aircraft. A lucky escape. 747 freighters nearly always have a tail stand inserted, or the noseleg tied to the ground while unloading. Or this can happen!
