Jet aircrafts reversing by own its own power
I remember an early problem with the BAC 1-11. (My father was a service rep.)
Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.
He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.
Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.
He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.
Beg to differ!
I've seen FlyBe's Dash 8's push-back at Norwich everal times.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.
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You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.
You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320
Only ever seen it done on rear-engine jets like 727, DC-9, MD-80 etc.
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Beg to differ!
I've seen FlyBe's Dash 8's push-back at Norwich everal times.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.
I've seen FlyBe's Dash 8's push-back at Norwich everal times.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.
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Eastern Airways Jetstream 41s powerback every turnaround from Aberdeen, and the Saab 2000 will powerback occasionally on charter for manouvreing i.e. parallel parking in LeMans at the 24hr race weekend when the airfield is very congested. The Saab is not allowed by the airport authority at Aberdeen to powerback from Terminal stands because of the significant prop wash which gives a significant risk of FOD damage to the terminals glass windows, but has done so from remote stands. Although Saab crews dont routinely powerback they have to demonstrate a powerback every sim check.
To all those that say you cant powerback because the aircraft will tip up if you apply the brakes. Correct, thats why you dont apply the brakes, merely moving out of reverse and back into ground idle or a slight amount of forward thrust is enough to stop the aircraft.
To all those that say you cant powerback because the aircraft will tip up if you apply the brakes. Correct, thats why you dont apply the brakes, merely moving out of reverse and back into ground idle or a slight amount of forward thrust is enough to stop the aircraft.
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It was very common for us to use reverse thrust to back up our 727s, lightly loaded or heavy. Main thing to remember was to not use the brakes to stop.
Well, one could use the brakes, but you would not like the results.
When heavy I would release the parking brake, add just enough foward thrust to roll foward a small distance, then go to reverse thrust and back up. By going forward a few feet, it did not require as much reverse thrust to break free.
Well, one could use the brakes, but you would not like the results.
When heavy I would release the parking brake, add just enough foward thrust to roll foward a small distance, then go to reverse thrust and back up. By going forward a few feet, it did not require as much reverse thrust to break free.
Saw Eastern Airlines doing it in Orlando the summer before they went out of business [ 1990 ?] to save the cost of a pushback . Types were 727, 757 and DC9 . A300 had a tug !
Originally Posted by WindSheer
You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.
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Too much danger of debris being blown up and being ingested into the front of the engine (although the Air Florida crew of the 737 that crashed in the Potomac did just this and this is one of the possible causes of engine sensors becoming blocked and giving false reading on take-off).
Swiss cheese indeed
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T`was on a B707 one night in 1972 at Teheran. The Concorde was also there that night. Was sitting up front in First Class on the right and as we started to leave there was a few agitated waving people on the ground.
Another aircraft arrived after us and we were blocked on the right.
Reverse thrust was used to go backwards so that we could turn and then get clear.
Another aircraft arrived after us and we were blocked on the right.
Reverse thrust was used to go backwards so that we could turn and then get clear.
YouTube - Boeing C-17 Globemaster III Aerobatics
About 6.50 for the reversing. Awesome display though anyway, got it from the thread in Mil. Aircrew talking about the sad loss of a C17 recently.
About 6.50 for the reversing. Awesome display though anyway, got it from the thread in Mil. Aircrew talking about the sad loss of a C17 recently.
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I remember an early problem with the BAC 1-11. (My father was a service rep.)
Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.
He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.
Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.
He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.
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Well once I started backing up with reverse thrust and didn’t want to.
I had ferried an ex-FAA Sabre 80 to an overhaul facility in St. Louis. Now this Sabre had been sitting with little or no maintenance, huh make that no maintenance, for over a year. Just getting ready the aircraft ready to fly was a bit of a chore. But after a lot of cursing and great amounts of banging around on the aircraft by some maintenance personnel the aircraft was declared fit for the hour and half ferry flight.
Just as I was getting into the aircraft the lead mechanic (engineer) came up to me and said, “I’d think twice about using the reversers on landing sir.” I inquired as to if the reversers were functional and he replied that yes, as far as he was concerned they were, but……
However, being an iron jawed, steel eyed and brain dead aviator, I promptly forgot all about the reversers. My co-pilot and I got into the cockpit, started the engines and taxied out. I’ll admit that as we taxied out and I noticed that the mechanics (engineers) appeared to be crossing their chest with their right hands, as if blessing us, did make me slightly concerned.
Never the less the flight was more or less uneventful, well except for the number two engine fire warning that kept going off, that was annoying to say the least, and that only one radio seemed to be working, we were soon landing at St. Louis.
I made my usual flawless landing and promptly grabbed the piggy back thrust reversers handles in front of the throttles, as I pulled them up to the full reverse position, the words about thinking twice about using them flashed through my mind, but too late now.
As expected and as designed both reversers deployed and shortly after that, both engines were developing full reverse power. As we were slowing through 80 kts I started to apply forward pressure on the piggy back reversers handles as to slowly reduce reverse thrust and stow the reversers.
Well, I tried to do that, unfortunately and neither as expected nor as designed, nothing happened. The reverser handles would not budge. By this point we were passing through 60 kts, still in full reverse thrust, this is not necessarily a good situation to be in, take my word for it.
My con-pilot looked at me as if to say, ‘okay, what the hell did you break now?’ I told him to try to stow the reversers. He tried, tried and tried again, no luck. Now we were at a dead stop on the runway, in full reverse thrust, standing on the brakes to keep the aircraft shooting backwards back down the runway. Needless to say, it felt like the aircraft was trying to shake itself apart, the instrument panel was vibrating so badly we could hardly read the instruments. Now if things were not bad enough, the control tower decides to become involved at this time.
ATC; “NXXXX take the next the exit to the right and contact ground point 9.”
Poor little ol’ us; “Huh, we can’t.”
While I consider the US ATC controllers some of the best in the world, sometimes they don’t listen. ATC; “NXXXX expedite to the next exit, traffic short final.”
Us again; “Unable, we’re stuck, we can’t move.” Okay, okay, technically we could have moved, but only backwards, which I didn’t believe would have helped the situation.
ATC; “TWA 123 heavy go around, disabled aircraft on the runway. TWA 456 follow the company heavy in front of you, American 789 cancel approach clearance, maintain current altitude, contact approach on 119.7”
TWA 123 heavy: “Roger, going around.” And the other airliners all responded in kind.
ATC; “NXXXX, you’re stuck?”
Exercising some of that command pilot stuff I’d been vested with, I took over the radio, the only one we had left, remember. “Err, yes sir, it seems that the engines are jammed in full reverse thrust and we have no control over the engines.”
About that time a TWA 747 roared over us and personally I believe that it was a lot lower than needed be, in fact my buddy in the right seat next to me swore that he saw the fist of the captain of the 747 shaking at us.
ATC; “Roger, understand, what are your intentions?”
Hell I didn’t know, sit here until we run out of fuel? Set the parking brake and then we’ll jump out of the aircraft, run away and hide in the closest bar?
Me; “We’re working on the problem.”
ATC; NXXXX, again, what are your intentions?”
Oh great, our last radio just went out, probably committed suicide. About this time my buddy in the right seat says “huh-oh’ and points out of the side windshield and I see about a dozen very large fire trucks racing down a taxiway towards us. ‘Great’ I think, I can just see us completely covered in a mountain of foam, sprayed on us in an attempt to snuff out the engines with only the tail of the aircraft sticking out of this foam mountain with a little red rotating beacon going around marking where we are.
About then the number two, or right engine, fire warning system came on again. Suddenly I had an idea, the first good idea since I had agreed to make this flight.
“The engine fire/shut off handles” I yelled at my buddy, “pull the fire handles, that will shut off the fuel to the engines.”
My buddy looks at me and says, “Just what makes you think they will work, nothing else in this thing has worked right.”
“Just pull them.”
He pulled and by God it worked, both engines shut down. Now, I had been taught since I first flew an aircraft equipped with fire/shut off handles to never, never ever, pull the handles if the engine was running, especially if the engine is running at full power. This act would in all likelihood cause major damage to the engine, I didn’t care, it worked.
The only saving grace about this whole incident, well to us anyway, was that the aircraft was still painted in FAA color scheme. That night we sitting in the hotel bar talking to a couple of American Airline pilots. One of them looked at me and said;
“Hey, you hear about the FAA Sabre closing down one of the runways today because the engines were stuck in reverse?”
Me, “Yeah, what a couple of dummies. Say, you been to St. Maarten Island lately?”
I had ferried an ex-FAA Sabre 80 to an overhaul facility in St. Louis. Now this Sabre had been sitting with little or no maintenance, huh make that no maintenance, for over a year. Just getting ready the aircraft ready to fly was a bit of a chore. But after a lot of cursing and great amounts of banging around on the aircraft by some maintenance personnel the aircraft was declared fit for the hour and half ferry flight.
Just as I was getting into the aircraft the lead mechanic (engineer) came up to me and said, “I’d think twice about using the reversers on landing sir.” I inquired as to if the reversers were functional and he replied that yes, as far as he was concerned they were, but……
However, being an iron jawed, steel eyed and brain dead aviator, I promptly forgot all about the reversers. My co-pilot and I got into the cockpit, started the engines and taxied out. I’ll admit that as we taxied out and I noticed that the mechanics (engineers) appeared to be crossing their chest with their right hands, as if blessing us, did make me slightly concerned.
Never the less the flight was more or less uneventful, well except for the number two engine fire warning that kept going off, that was annoying to say the least, and that only one radio seemed to be working, we were soon landing at St. Louis.
I made my usual flawless landing and promptly grabbed the piggy back thrust reversers handles in front of the throttles, as I pulled them up to the full reverse position, the words about thinking twice about using them flashed through my mind, but too late now.
As expected and as designed both reversers deployed and shortly after that, both engines were developing full reverse power. As we were slowing through 80 kts I started to apply forward pressure on the piggy back reversers handles as to slowly reduce reverse thrust and stow the reversers.
Well, I tried to do that, unfortunately and neither as expected nor as designed, nothing happened. The reverser handles would not budge. By this point we were passing through 60 kts, still in full reverse thrust, this is not necessarily a good situation to be in, take my word for it.
My con-pilot looked at me as if to say, ‘okay, what the hell did you break now?’ I told him to try to stow the reversers. He tried, tried and tried again, no luck. Now we were at a dead stop on the runway, in full reverse thrust, standing on the brakes to keep the aircraft shooting backwards back down the runway. Needless to say, it felt like the aircraft was trying to shake itself apart, the instrument panel was vibrating so badly we could hardly read the instruments. Now if things were not bad enough, the control tower decides to become involved at this time.
ATC; “NXXXX take the next the exit to the right and contact ground point 9.”
Poor little ol’ us; “Huh, we can’t.”
While I consider the US ATC controllers some of the best in the world, sometimes they don’t listen. ATC; “NXXXX expedite to the next exit, traffic short final.”
Us again; “Unable, we’re stuck, we can’t move.” Okay, okay, technically we could have moved, but only backwards, which I didn’t believe would have helped the situation.
ATC; “TWA 123 heavy go around, disabled aircraft on the runway. TWA 456 follow the company heavy in front of you, American 789 cancel approach clearance, maintain current altitude, contact approach on 119.7”
TWA 123 heavy: “Roger, going around.” And the other airliners all responded in kind.
ATC; “NXXXX, you’re stuck?”
Exercising some of that command pilot stuff I’d been vested with, I took over the radio, the only one we had left, remember. “Err, yes sir, it seems that the engines are jammed in full reverse thrust and we have no control over the engines.”
About that time a TWA 747 roared over us and personally I believe that it was a lot lower than needed be, in fact my buddy in the right seat next to me swore that he saw the fist of the captain of the 747 shaking at us.
ATC; “Roger, understand, what are your intentions?”
Hell I didn’t know, sit here until we run out of fuel? Set the parking brake and then we’ll jump out of the aircraft, run away and hide in the closest bar?
Me; “We’re working on the problem.”
ATC; NXXXX, again, what are your intentions?”
Oh great, our last radio just went out, probably committed suicide. About this time my buddy in the right seat says “huh-oh’ and points out of the side windshield and I see about a dozen very large fire trucks racing down a taxiway towards us. ‘Great’ I think, I can just see us completely covered in a mountain of foam, sprayed on us in an attempt to snuff out the engines with only the tail of the aircraft sticking out of this foam mountain with a little red rotating beacon going around marking where we are.
About then the number two, or right engine, fire warning system came on again. Suddenly I had an idea, the first good idea since I had agreed to make this flight.
“The engine fire/shut off handles” I yelled at my buddy, “pull the fire handles, that will shut off the fuel to the engines.”
My buddy looks at me and says, “Just what makes you think they will work, nothing else in this thing has worked right.”
“Just pull them.”
He pulled and by God it worked, both engines shut down. Now, I had been taught since I first flew an aircraft equipped with fire/shut off handles to never, never ever, pull the handles if the engine was running, especially if the engine is running at full power. This act would in all likelihood cause major damage to the engine, I didn’t care, it worked.
The only saving grace about this whole incident, well to us anyway, was that the aircraft was still painted in FAA color scheme. That night we sitting in the hotel bar talking to a couple of American Airline pilots. One of them looked at me and said;
“Hey, you hear about the FAA Sabre closing down one of the runways today because the engines were stuck in reverse?”
Me, “Yeah, what a couple of dummies. Say, you been to St. Maarten Island lately?”
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RAF VC10's used to do it, especially in places like Deci, though it could cause probs with gas and crap reingestion..
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Power backs were very common in the US midwest back in the late 70's, 80's. I was living in Kansas City so it would have been on Northwest, Republic, Ozark, Delta, and Braniff - all flying DC-9s or 727s. Not sure if all of them did it but the practice was very common.
@FL370, it seems like FlyBE applies rather stringent limitations there. At Tyrolean, powerbacks are approved both for the -300 and the -400 series DHC8, although they are pretty rare. Of course, several limitations apply for their use.
