Altitude - above a country, or just in the 'atmosphere'?
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Altitude - above a country, or just in the 'atmosphere'?
As a travelling member of SLF I've flown over many nations which I've never step foot on - i.e. China - and 'gorped' out of the window for hours on end.
I've spent 1000's of hours in UK airspace at 30,000+ and at 1/4000ft in props; but both levels feel like I'm above "home". But at 30+k over asia it doesn't look or feel real.
Q. at which alt do you actually begin to fly over a country rather than just the space above it?
e.g.
1) <5k ft
2) <10k ft
3) when someone on the ground can hear your engine? (tp)
4) when you're low enough to see people on the ground?
5) ??
At high altitude the earth just looks like the earth!
I've spent 1000's of hours in UK airspace at 30,000+ and at 1/4000ft in props; but both levels feel like I'm above "home". But at 30+k over asia it doesn't look or feel real.
Q. at which alt do you actually begin to fly over a country rather than just the space above it?
e.g.
1) <5k ft
2) <10k ft
3) when someone on the ground can hear your engine? (tp)
4) when you're low enough to see people on the ground?
5) ??
At high altitude the earth just looks like the earth!
Nice one......
, The World looks much more like Google Earth than the old style school globe doesn't it?
For practical purposes I reckon you are "in" when you are talking to that particular country's controllers, though does the fact that the Maastricht sectors cover a chunk of NW Europe mean Belgium no longer exists
.
The only place I can think of where the Border between two countries really looks like a line on the map is the Indian-Pakistan border seen at night....hundreds and hundreds of kilometers of lights.
, The World looks much more like Google Earth than the old style school globe doesn't it?For practical purposes I reckon you are "in" when you are talking to that particular country's controllers, though does the fact that the Maastricht sectors cover a chunk of NW Europe mean Belgium no longer exists
.The only place I can think of where the Border between two countries really looks like a line on the map is the Indian-Pakistan border seen at night....hundreds and hundreds of kilometers of lights.
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<<at which alt do you actually begin to fly over a country rather than just the space above >>
The instant the wheels leave the ground. You are over a country when you are in the space above it. Where else could you possibly be?
The instant the wheels leave the ground. You are over a country when you are in the space above it. Where else could you possibly be?
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Come on HD, use your imagination!
If we were to hire a 152 and take off from a UK base, reach 4000ft , fly around for an hour and land, then I would class that as flying "around" the UK/home.
If we were in a wide body, taking off from LHR, en route to HK, we may fly 'over' various countries, at >30,000ft. In that situation it feels more as if we're over the earth, rarther than a specific country.
If we were to hire a 152 and take off from a UK base, reach 4000ft , fly around for an hour and land, then I would class that as flying "around" the UK/home.
If we were in a wide body, taking off from LHR, en route to HK, we may fly 'over' various countries, at >30,000ft. In that situation it feels more as if we're over the earth, rarther than a specific country.
I get it, it's not particularly well phrased but it poses a question that I don't know the answer to.
HD it's not that simple, what altitude is classed as 'airspace' that you would need permissions for - obviously satellites don't count as they are in space - or do they? Is there a specified altitude that means you are a transitioning satallite whereby you wouldn't have to get relevant controller permission?
If you are a HD anyway, (a job I'd dream of) why are you wasting your time being pedantic, and dare I say it, a little harsh, about an innocent 'spotters corner' question?
HD it's not that simple, what altitude is classed as 'airspace' that you would need permissions for - obviously satellites don't count as they are in space - or do they? Is there a specified altitude that means you are a transitioning satallite whereby you wouldn't have to get relevant controller permission?
If you are a HD anyway, (a job I'd dream of) why are you wasting your time being pedantic, and dare I say it, a little harsh, about an innocent 'spotters corner' question?
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L4key.. You are the one being pedantic! I just answered a simple question with a simple answer.
What did the originator ask? "Q. at which alt do you actually begin to fly over a country rather than just the space above it?"
He then provided a few possible answers.
The answer I gave - "The instant the wheels leave the ground. You are over a country when you are in the space above it. Where else could you possibly be?" was surely totally correct?
I wish you luck with your dream; I had a similar one about 55 years ago. Oh yes, I'm a lifelong spotter too!!
What did the originator ask? "Q. at which alt do you actually begin to fly over a country rather than just the space above it?"
He then provided a few possible answers.
The answer I gave - "The instant the wheels leave the ground. You are over a country when you are in the space above it. Where else could you possibly be?" was surely totally correct?
I wish you luck with your dream; I had a similar one about 55 years ago. Oh yes, I'm a lifelong spotter too!!
I'm not saying you weren't accurate in your response, it just sounded a little harsh IMHO.
One9iner does sound a little like he's on drugs though
See, sometimes a nice smiley winky face can take the edge of a post thats all...
One9iner does sound a little like he's on drugs though
See, sometimes a nice smiley winky face can take the edge of a post thats all...
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Look up transition altitude on wikipedia. Basically each country has its own predetermined altitude. When an aircraft is taking off it sets it baromoter to the current reading given by ATC and the height of the airport above sea level. Once it has reached this transition level it will then set it to 29.92. All other aircraft do this at the same height so this so they are capable of flying at different heights relative to each other regardless of the height of the ground.
The UK is set to 6000 ft (I think) whereas the USA is 18,000 ft (Again I think)
Senario :- If someone was to fly across the White cliffs of Dover, would you expect the plane to drop so it kept the same height from the top of the cliff and the sea !!!!
Read wiki, it makes more sense that what I've just typed
Matt
The UK is set to 6000 ft (I think) whereas the USA is 18,000 ft (Again I think)
Senario :- If someone was to fly across the White cliffs of Dover, would you expect the plane to drop so it kept the same height from the top of the cliff and the sea !!!!
Read wiki, it makes more sense that what I've just typed
Matt
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It's quite a good question, maybe not well formulated. Airspace is part of a country's sovereign territory, in the same way as are its territorial waters. Unlike territorial waters, however, there is no internationally recognised (vertical) limit to sovereign airspace - it's normally regarded as 'as high as an aircraft can fly'.
If you have flown over China, you have certainly been within Chinese territory.
If you have flown over China, you have certainly been within Chinese territory.
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<<When an aircraft is taking off it sets it baromoter to the current reading given by ATC and the height of the airport above sea level. Once it has reached this transition level it will then set it to 29.92.>>
<<Barometer>> I believe you mean Altimeter.
<<Sets a reading from ATC and the height above sea level?>> Altimeters only have one setting arrangement so the setting depends on what you want the altimeter to read - sea level, airfield elevation of Flight Level.
<<29.92>> UK uses millibars or hectopascals (hPa) and the standard setting is 1013.2 (same as 29.92 inches)
The Transition Altitude is reached first on climb out and varies around the UK. In major Terminal Areas it is 6000 ft.
HTH.
<<Barometer>> I believe you mean Altimeter.
<<Sets a reading from ATC and the height above sea level?>> Altimeters only have one setting arrangement so the setting depends on what you want the altimeter to read - sea level, airfield elevation of Flight Level.
<<29.92>> UK uses millibars or hectopascals (hPa) and the standard setting is 1013.2 (same as 29.92 inches)
The Transition Altitude is reached first on climb out and varies around the UK. In major Terminal Areas it is 6000 ft.
HTH.
I agree that it's not at all a silly question. And I also agree that more imagination is required by some on here . . .
First, the OP seems (to me) to be positing the notion of "feeling" you are over a particular place, as opposed to the point where that specific feeling dissipates -- which it indeed does. If one is flogging around at 5000 feet one sees the details that make it obvious where one is: houses, specific rivers, mountains, etc. There is a point where it all melds into "one earth" below and, to me at least (and perhaps to the OP), sovereign states become less recognisable -- and more irrelevant.
Second (to HD), despite your somewhat flippant "where else could you possibly be?" comment, one is NOT over the UK (for example) above a certain point. As a previous poster noted, countries have so far been unable to agree on (and are perhaps reticent to pursue) the notion of "upper limits" of territorial airspace. Clearly, there comes a point (one hundred miles, one thousand miles, twenty thousand miles?) when the concept of being in any country's territory is both absurd and unenforceable. The "where else could you be" is "elsewhere" or "space".
grizz
First, the OP seems (to me) to be positing the notion of "feeling" you are over a particular place, as opposed to the point where that specific feeling dissipates -- which it indeed does. If one is flogging around at 5000 feet one sees the details that make it obvious where one is: houses, specific rivers, mountains, etc. There is a point where it all melds into "one earth" below and, to me at least (and perhaps to the OP), sovereign states become less recognisable -- and more irrelevant.
Second (to HD), despite your somewhat flippant "where else could you possibly be?" comment, one is NOT over the UK (for example) above a certain point. As a previous poster noted, countries have so far been unable to agree on (and are perhaps reticent to pursue) the notion of "upper limits" of territorial airspace. Clearly, there comes a point (one hundred miles, one thousand miles, twenty thousand miles?) when the concept of being in any country's territory is both absurd and unenforceable. The "where else could you be" is "elsewhere" or "space".
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I think the answer you are looking for is:
each country (or member state of ICAO) has complete sovenarity of the airspace above it. This airspace has NO upper limit. which raises interesting questions when we start to consider space flight.
each country (or member state of ICAO) has complete sovenarity of the airspace above it. This airspace has NO upper limit. which raises interesting questions when we start to consider space flight.
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UN Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of Sates in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies, signed on 27 January 1967. The Outer Space Treaty,
Approx. altitude 90Km
Guy
Approx. altitude 90Km
Guy
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I'm with HD too. A top gent to work with, and huge experience. Belittle his vast knowledge and exceptional humour at your cost!
Airspace above FL660 is Class G. How much 'air' is up there in that 'space' is another matter. Airspace sovereignty claims vary from country to country. I don't suppose Leichtenstein are too fussed.........
Airspace above FL660 is Class G. How much 'air' is up there in that 'space' is another matter. Airspace sovereignty claims vary from country to country. I don't suppose Leichtenstein are too fussed.........
