IFR in classic jets?
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IFR in classic jets?
Hi chaps.
I was just wondering, given current departure and arrival plates, many giving references to intersections, how to pilots of classic jets manage to follow them?
Some will be equipped with INS which will obviously help, but some (like the 727 I believe) can only navigate VOR to VOR.
Do they just get a little extra direction from ATC?
Thanks in advance
I was just wondering, given current departure and arrival plates, many giving references to intersections, how to pilots of classic jets manage to follow them?
Some will be equipped with INS which will obviously help, but some (like the 727 I believe) can only navigate VOR to VOR.
Do they just get a little extra direction from ATC?
Thanks in advance
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In Europe, the aircraft must be equipped with BRNAV (Basic aRea NAVigation) kit if it operates above FL095. This allows it to fly to intersections, etc.
Your 727 would be a very uneconomical beast if it had to stay below FL095 for its flight
For aircraft which lose BRNAV capability (either when airborne or with dispensation obtained before the flight), then ATC have the ability to provide the appropriate assistance.
Your 727 would be a very uneconomical beast if it had to stay below FL095 for its flight
For aircraft which lose BRNAV capability (either when airborne or with dispensation obtained before the flight), then ATC have the ability to provide the appropriate assistance.
Why would a 727 be limited to VOR to VOR flying? We had IFR certified GPSs on them 20 years ago to replace the OMEGA. There are plenty of older jets with FMSs installed, all just a matter of $$$$. (Sorry, can't get the keyboard to give me a Pound Sterling symbol.)
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In Europe, the aircraft must be equipped with BRNAV (Basic aRea NAVigation) kit if it operates above FL095. This allows it to fly to intersections, etc.
Your 727 would be a very uneconomical beast if it had to stay below FL095 for its flight
For aircraft which lose BRNAV capability (either when airborne or with dispensation obtained before the flight), then ATC have the ability to provide the appropriate assistance.
Your 727 would be a very uneconomical beast if it had to stay below FL095 for its flight
For aircraft which lose BRNAV capability (either when airborne or with dispensation obtained before the flight), then ATC have the ability to provide the appropriate assistance.
Is this a fairly new rule, as aircraft like Concorde never had RNAV?
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Two specific types of BRNAV/PRNAV equipment are available for older aircraft (without FMS fitment, such as some early models of the L1011/business jets etc), and these are...
Honeywell HT9100 GPS navigator
Universal UNS-1M GPS navigator
Having personally used both units in the past (and now), they are very reliable units and operate superbly....even transAtlantic/trans Pacific, for which they are both approved as a sole means of naviagation.
Pony up the cash for dual units...a done deal.
Both units have their advantages.
The HT9100 is a color (colour, for you folks in the UK
) display and is more user-friendly, IMO.
However, the Universal UNS-1M comes equipped with a worldwide database...it even provides various ATC frequencies, runways lengths, elevation, magnetic variation etc etc of allthe airports in the database (and in the USA there are 9100 of them, all public use, with instrument approaches, SIDS/STARS included...the whole nine yards.
About the only thing missing is a Google Earth view...you have to go to the internet for that.
And, speaking of Google Earth, their new views actually shows the registration number of my private airplane parked in Arizona...if you look very carefully.
NB.
Google Earth, again.
Before the availability of this (and many other military sat.. views, and even before the U-2 aircraft looking at the Russkies...there was the B-36J.
Yes, the 'ole B-36 with ten engines, stripped down to the 'featherweight' model (look on U-tube for views) and equipped with superb cameras that could (and I have personally seen the photos, photographed from 70,000 feet...yes the 'ole B-36 could get this high...just imagine)..my neighbor, Colonel Jim flew some of these flights over China...and the golf balls could clearly be seen, on a golf course, in these photos.
Says Colonel Jim...'you could nearly count the dimples.
1950's technology, folks.
Honeywell HT9100 GPS navigator
Universal UNS-1M GPS navigator
Having personally used both units in the past (and now), they are very reliable units and operate superbly....even transAtlantic/trans Pacific, for which they are both approved as a sole means of naviagation.
Pony up the cash for dual units...a done deal.
Both units have their advantages.
The HT9100 is a color (colour, for you folks in the UK
) display and is more user-friendly, IMO.However, the Universal UNS-1M comes equipped with a worldwide database...it even provides various ATC frequencies, runways lengths, elevation, magnetic variation etc etc of allthe airports in the database (and in the USA there are 9100 of them, all public use, with instrument approaches, SIDS/STARS included...the whole nine yards.
About the only thing missing is a Google Earth view...you have to go to the internet for that.
And, speaking of Google Earth, their new views actually shows the registration number of my private airplane parked in Arizona...if you look very carefully.
NB.
Google Earth, again.
Before the availability of this (and many other military sat.. views, and even before the U-2 aircraft looking at the Russkies...there was the B-36J.
Yes, the 'ole B-36 with ten engines, stripped down to the 'featherweight' model (look on U-tube for views) and equipped with superb cameras that could (and I have personally seen the photos, photographed from 70,000 feet...yes the 'ole B-36 could get this high...just imagine)..my neighbor, Colonel Jim flew some of these flights over China...and the golf balls could clearly be seen, on a golf course, in these photos.
Says Colonel Jim...'you could nearly count the dimples.
1950's technology, folks.
Last edited by 411A; 14th Nov 2009 at 06:11.
''Interesting! So any such aircraft such as say a 747-200 would need to be retrofitted with BRNAV - the INS alone wouldn't cut it?''
That's correct. And it must have some sort of graphic nav display as well. My company had 747 classics and we had to fit Nav displays. They went the whole hog and fitted glass cockpits. They already had Marconi FMS900 Flight Management Computers fed from GPS updated triple Litton 92 IRS units, so it was an easy modification. But in the end, it gave us nav kit that was better than the 747-400's.
That's correct. And it must have some sort of graphic nav display as well. My company had 747 classics and we had to fit Nav displays. They went the whole hog and fitted glass cockpits. They already had Marconi FMS900 Flight Management Computers fed from GPS updated triple Litton 92 IRS units, so it was an easy modification. But in the end, it gave us nav kit that was better than the 747-400's.
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They planned each flight on charts using a pencil and a straight edge. During flight they check their position using VORs. Note that VORs are rarely flown directly to or from. They are used for reference by means of triangulation (using two VORs to check your exact position) or by using DME. The advent of GPS systems really took the fun out of old-fashioned VOR planning and navigation. Its much more gratifying to see your destination airport at the end of a manually navigated flight.
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It was more than gratifying, it was positively 'orgasmic' to finally see Bermuda after an Atlantic crossing in a pre-INS era VC10 when the pilot-nav was having trouble fixing position all the way across, couldn't get star shots and the Loran was playing up! There have been at least a couple of airliners since the war that are still out there looking for Bermuda! Even I was roped into desperately counting dots of the Consol long range navigation system- an old German wartime U-boat navigation aid still in use up to the 70s! Your only aim was to find a 400 mile diameter circle floating in the North Atlantic- once there you could pick up the VOR.
