"Negotiating with ATC"
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"Negotiating with ATC"
All, firstly a quick search didn't provide an answer to my question. Thanks to anyone who can provide an answer.
I was recently on a flight back from Turkey, which had been delayed due to the aircraft having a technical issue on an earlier leg that day. Once the plane was loaded, fuelled and ready the skipper informed the pax that ATC in Greece had given a much later slot than desired, and there was a risk that we may have to wait for 3 hours before departing. It was then explained that the crew were "negotiating" with Greece ATC to provide an earlier clearance time and that because we were loaded & ready, we were in a position to leave as soon as cleared.
Seeing as the crew (2) had just flown from Gatwick (4ish hours) and were about to return, am I correct in assuming that they would run out of hours if forced to sit and wait for 3 more hours? Thus forcing the flight to be either cancelled or a replacement crew being sourced?
My question is exactly how do "negotiations" work between crew and ATC in such an instance? Is it a case of a very polite "pretty please with a cherry on the top" or do flight ops at base get involved to try and pull a few strings?
Many thanks.
19er
Edited to say the crew were provided an earlier slot by Greek ATC and we departed within 20 minutes; well done chaps!
I was recently on a flight back from Turkey, which had been delayed due to the aircraft having a technical issue on an earlier leg that day. Once the plane was loaded, fuelled and ready the skipper informed the pax that ATC in Greece had given a much later slot than desired, and there was a risk that we may have to wait for 3 hours before departing. It was then explained that the crew were "negotiating" with Greece ATC to provide an earlier clearance time and that because we were loaded & ready, we were in a position to leave as soon as cleared.
Seeing as the crew (2) had just flown from Gatwick (4ish hours) and were about to return, am I correct in assuming that they would run out of hours if forced to sit and wait for 3 more hours? Thus forcing the flight to be either cancelled or a replacement crew being sourced?
My question is exactly how do "negotiations" work between crew and ATC in such an instance? Is it a case of a very polite "pretty please with a cherry on the top" or do flight ops at base get involved to try and pull a few strings?
Many thanks.
19er
Edited to say the crew were provided an earlier slot by Greek ATC and we departed within 20 minutes; well done chaps!
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Crew duty hours might or might not have been a problem. Mostly depends what time of day they came on duty at LGW.
As regards 'negotiating' with ATC, the crew would have called their flight operations and asked them to get on to the case. Happens all the time.
As regards 'negotiating' with ATC, the crew would have called their flight operations and asked them to get on to the case. Happens all the time.
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Great, thanks.
Our flight should have departed 23:00 (ish) local, but the LGW arrival didn't land until about 23:30, and we departed around 01:00.
I presume that the 1st leg would have departed LGW at around 15:30 GMT.
I appreciate your answer re: flight ops leading the negoatiation with ATC, but what exactly would they say? What would they use as leverage in the discussion?
Cheers
19er
Our flight should have departed 23:00 (ish) local, but the LGW arrival didn't land until about 23:30, and we departed around 01:00.
I presume that the 1st leg would have departed LGW at around 15:30 GMT.
I appreciate your answer re: flight ops leading the negoatiation with ATC, but what exactly would they say? What would they use as leverage in the discussion?
Cheers
19er
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Slot times (officially Calculated Take Off Time or CTOT) within most of Europe are caluclated and issued by Eurocontrol's Central Flow Management Unit (CFMU). Most of the negotiation happens electronically (some is even automated). Local ATC don't really have much input but can get involved in message exchange on the behalf of the operator. Bear in mind that the restriction causing the slot may be hundreds or even thousands of miles away.
What would normally happen if a flight missed a slot is that the operator/departure aerodrome would send a delay message with a new Estimated Off Blocks Time (i.e. the time the aircraft is expected to push back off stand) and CFMU will work out a new slot. They have a set taxi time for each airport to make sure that the aircraft can reasonably get to the runway from the parking stand in time to make the slot. Of course, the delay may be much longer as was the case with your flight. In this situation ATC can send a ready message to CFMU and if an earlier slot becomes available it may be offered to you.
What would normally happen if a flight missed a slot is that the operator/departure aerodrome would send a delay message with a new Estimated Off Blocks Time (i.e. the time the aircraft is expected to push back off stand) and CFMU will work out a new slot. They have a set taxi time for each airport to make sure that the aircraft can reasonably get to the runway from the parking stand in time to make the slot. Of course, the delay may be much longer as was the case with your flight. In this situation ATC can send a ready message to CFMU and if an earlier slot becomes available it may be offered to you.
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That makes sense, thanks for the feedback.
Although it was interesting to listen to the captain explain how the flight plan was due to take us into Greek controlled air space, and that it was the Greek ATC that had an issue with our timing.
Rgds
19er
Although it was interesting to listen to the captain explain how the flight plan was due to take us into Greek controlled air space, and that it was the Greek ATC that had an issue with our timing.
Rgds
19er
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..... or, the airline operations department can look at a reroute or a different flight level.
as a previous poster replied, most is now automatically computerised.
i remember in the good old days when we had an aircraft sat on the ground with a long slot delay and we would call atc in brussels and be very nice to them and tell them we were ready to go and after a bit of *rse licking we would be lucky and get an improved slot.
as a previous poster replied, most is now automatically computerised.
i remember in the good old days when we had an aircraft sat on the ground with a long slot delay and we would call atc in brussels and be very nice to them and tell them we were ready to go and after a bit of *rse licking we would be lucky and get an improved slot.
I believe the Greeks have been involved in industrial action recently meaning that they are working without the full complement of controllers. In order to ensure safety they will restrict the amount of aircraft that they need to handle so that they don't get overloaded. These restrictions will manifest themselves in the form of slots. If the captain referred to Greek airspace then that is likely to be where the restriction came from. As reportyourlevel said, it could be that your slot relates to London's airspace or anywhere in between. It's sometimes possible for ops to re-route you to avoid the restriction. Let's say your Athens to London slot was caused by staff shortage in the Munich sector, Ops could re-plan your flight to avoid that sector and perhaps route through France instead of Germany.
SW
SW
Thanks for the info
