Spyplane: A wish not granted
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Spyplane: A wish not granted
Well it’s not going to happen. My fervent wish to see that spying EP-3 spend the rest of its life in my favourite museum is not to be . It goes home to its makers but my oh my what a price those intruders are paying. Expenses amounting to millions, massive manpower effort and much loss of face. It’s a sure bet the “ Standard Operating Procedures “ for spies has been amended and there is now an emphasis on attention to co-ordinates. Sweaty palms will be the order of the day when a couple of F8s or Sukhoi-30s with their eye catching red stars hove alongside any future intrusions.
KIFIS
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My dear KIFIS;
Having just read your post on how sad you are that the P-3 is not going to your favorite museum and that the United States has "lost face", I have a question?
Just who lost face?
An airplane that was flying in clear weather, in international airspace, over international waters was intercepted by two high speed, highly maneuverable jetfighter aircraft. The aircraft that was intercepted was an unarmed, slow, four engine turbo-prop aircraft that was much less maneuverable. The aircraft that was intercepted was flying straight and level. What happened next is history. So let's look at the facts and really see who lost face.
Fact 1. The intercepted aircraft belonged to the United States Navy and was on an intelligence-gathering mission. The United States did not lie or mislead anyone about the mission of this aircraft, in fact the aircraft was operating under a United States Navy ATC call sign. This was not the first of these type flights near China. This was not the first time one of these intelligence-gathering airplanes had been intercepted. So unless the Chinese interceptor command (or whatever they call it) is so inept that when actually find someone and can direct fighters to the target, they think they have gained a lot of face. I don't think this is the case.
Conclusion: No country gains or loses face.
Fact 2. One of the intercepting jetfighters accidentally hits the left wing of the intercepted aircraft. Please don't respond saying the P-3 rammed the fighter, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. The Chinese fighter is severely damaged and the pilot successfully ejects. Both the second Chinese fighter pilot and the crew of the P-3 observe a good chute. The P-3 is also severely damaged and for a time is out of control. Lacking ejection seats for himself and his 22 other crewmembers the Aircraft Commander is forced to regain control of the aircraft and land at the closes airport, no matter in what country it is located. Sadly the intercepting Chinese fighter pilot is never found.
The cause of the accident was the poor airman-ship and inept training of the intercepting Chinese fighter pilot resulting in the loss of both the fighter and it's pilot. The excellent airman-ship and superior training of the intercepted United States Navy P-3's pilot resulted in the safe landing and survival of all crewmembers.
Conclusion: The United States gains much face. The Chinese loses face.
Fact 3. The severely damaged P-3 declares "Mayday" numerous times and is ignored by the Chinese. Other ATCCs and other aircraft hear the mayday message. Despite no help from any Chinese agencies the P-3 lands safely at an international airport in China. The Chinese Government sends an armed boarding party on board of the emergency aircraft and arrests the entire crew and impounds the aircraft. The Chinese then claims that the P-3 "rammed" their fighter and will not release the crew or aircraft until the United States Government apologizes for causing the midair collision, pay repartitions and promises to never, never, ever fly around China again.
The United States Government says, in diplomatic language, "Yeah sure, whatever, send our people back now!" The Chinese Government releases the crew. The Chinese Government says in diplomatic language, "Ok, ok, here are your people back. They eat too damn much, drank all of our beer and who is this Homer Simpson guy? But you're never, never, ever going to get your airplane back." The United States Government replies, in diplomatic language, "Look we really are sorry about the loss of your pilot. However, we will get our airplane back and we will fly it out. P.S. don't worry about Homer Simpson." The Chinese Government replies, in diplomatic language of course, "Ok, you can the airplane back, we don't want the antique piece of junk anyway. However because it is in such bad shape you will have to take it apart and ship it out of our country. We don't want any pieces falling off and killing anymore of our citizens." The Chinese Government releases the airplane.
Conclusion: The United States gains much face. The Chinese loses face.
So, KIFIS I ask you again. Who lost face?
[This message has been edited by con-pilot (edited 28 June 2001).]
Having just read your post on how sad you are that the P-3 is not going to your favorite museum and that the United States has "lost face", I have a question?
Just who lost face?
An airplane that was flying in clear weather, in international airspace, over international waters was intercepted by two high speed, highly maneuverable jetfighter aircraft. The aircraft that was intercepted was an unarmed, slow, four engine turbo-prop aircraft that was much less maneuverable. The aircraft that was intercepted was flying straight and level. What happened next is history. So let's look at the facts and really see who lost face.
Fact 1. The intercepted aircraft belonged to the United States Navy and was on an intelligence-gathering mission. The United States did not lie or mislead anyone about the mission of this aircraft, in fact the aircraft was operating under a United States Navy ATC call sign. This was not the first of these type flights near China. This was not the first time one of these intelligence-gathering airplanes had been intercepted. So unless the Chinese interceptor command (or whatever they call it) is so inept that when actually find someone and can direct fighters to the target, they think they have gained a lot of face. I don't think this is the case.
Conclusion: No country gains or loses face.
Fact 2. One of the intercepting jetfighters accidentally hits the left wing of the intercepted aircraft. Please don't respond saying the P-3 rammed the fighter, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. The Chinese fighter is severely damaged and the pilot successfully ejects. Both the second Chinese fighter pilot and the crew of the P-3 observe a good chute. The P-3 is also severely damaged and for a time is out of control. Lacking ejection seats for himself and his 22 other crewmembers the Aircraft Commander is forced to regain control of the aircraft and land at the closes airport, no matter in what country it is located. Sadly the intercepting Chinese fighter pilot is never found.
The cause of the accident was the poor airman-ship and inept training of the intercepting Chinese fighter pilot resulting in the loss of both the fighter and it's pilot. The excellent airman-ship and superior training of the intercepted United States Navy P-3's pilot resulted in the safe landing and survival of all crewmembers.
Conclusion: The United States gains much face. The Chinese loses face.
Fact 3. The severely damaged P-3 declares "Mayday" numerous times and is ignored by the Chinese. Other ATCCs and other aircraft hear the mayday message. Despite no help from any Chinese agencies the P-3 lands safely at an international airport in China. The Chinese Government sends an armed boarding party on board of the emergency aircraft and arrests the entire crew and impounds the aircraft. The Chinese then claims that the P-3 "rammed" their fighter and will not release the crew or aircraft until the United States Government apologizes for causing the midair collision, pay repartitions and promises to never, never, ever fly around China again.
The United States Government says, in diplomatic language, "Yeah sure, whatever, send our people back now!" The Chinese Government releases the crew. The Chinese Government says in diplomatic language, "Ok, ok, here are your people back. They eat too damn much, drank all of our beer and who is this Homer Simpson guy? But you're never, never, ever going to get your airplane back." The United States Government replies, in diplomatic language, "Look we really are sorry about the loss of your pilot. However, we will get our airplane back and we will fly it out. P.S. don't worry about Homer Simpson." The Chinese Government replies, in diplomatic language of course, "Ok, you can the airplane back, we don't want the antique piece of junk anyway. However because it is in such bad shape you will have to take it apart and ship it out of our country. We don't want any pieces falling off and killing anymore of our citizens." The Chinese Government releases the airplane.
Conclusion: The United States gains much face. The Chinese loses face.
So, KIFIS I ask you again. Who lost face?
[This message has been edited by con-pilot (edited 28 June 2001).]
Guest
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It's just amazing how the U.S. goes through so much trouble and expense of gathering information: Submarines positioning "listening pods" over underwater telephone lines; digging tunnels under the former Berlin Wall and under foreign embassies in Wash.D.C.; flying spy planes to intercept foreign military cripto, etc...
And the other guys, well...they get all our good stuff the easy way through the likes of Hannsen, the Walkers, Ames, and now a nearly intact drove of electronics aboard the P3 landed right in China's front lawn. Eh?
And the other guys, well...they get all our good stuff the easy way through the likes of Hannsen, the Walkers, Ames, and now a nearly intact drove of electronics aboard the P3 landed right in China's front lawn. Eh?
Guest
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I think that all the sensitive kit abourd the Rivet was severely u/s upon landing. In which case the mighty Peoples army learnt very little.
Whereas the continual SIGINT/COMINT/HUMINT efforts of the US gathers an awful lot of goldust I would guess.
Plus Taiwan got their missiles...
WWW
Whereas the continual SIGINT/COMINT/HUMINT efforts of the US gathers an awful lot of goldust I would guess.
Plus Taiwan got their missiles...
WWW
Guest
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con-pilot,
Your reply is a good summary of what happened but you lose all credibility by implying that poor airmanship and inept training caused the collision. To extend your reasoning is to ask why do the Blue Angels and even the Snowbirds have collisions ? If you have ever been up close then you will know just how easily it can happen. The entire affair that has cost your country much face was caused by the fact that the EP-3 was an intruder and should not have been there. All the justification in the world will not alter this fact.
KIFIS
Your reply is a good summary of what happened but you lose all credibility by implying that poor airmanship and inept training caused the collision. To extend your reasoning is to ask why do the Blue Angels and even the Snowbirds have collisions ? If you have ever been up close then you will know just how easily it can happen. The entire affair that has cost your country much face was caused by the fact that the EP-3 was an intruder and should not have been there. All the justification in the world will not alter this fact.
KIFIS
Guest
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Dear KIFIS,
The aircraft was in international airspace the whole time; what do you mean it was an intruder? The Chinese are throwing spit wads at a Battleship when they try to tweak the nose of the US. If you want the red navy/airforce to keep the international shipping lanes open for the pacific nations, as a US taxpayer I wouldn't mind. But soon all you folks from OZ would be a vassel state with priviliges from the comrads on the mainland, rather then rights from Canberra.
Why we bother is a great wonder to me. Let Japan, Korea, and rest of Asia deal with the despots on their own dime. We'll keep the straights of Hormuz open and the oil can flow to us via Europe and the East Coast of the USA. Nothing they make in asia that we can't make here if we want to, I doubt that can be said for the rest of the countries, including yours.
Good luck mate. And don't be asking for no dam immigration visa to the usa, solve your own problems, make your own jobs, and throw yourself a shrimp on the barbe.
The aircraft was in international airspace the whole time; what do you mean it was an intruder? The Chinese are throwing spit wads at a Battleship when they try to tweak the nose of the US. If you want the red navy/airforce to keep the international shipping lanes open for the pacific nations, as a US taxpayer I wouldn't mind. But soon all you folks from OZ would be a vassel state with priviliges from the comrads on the mainland, rather then rights from Canberra.
Why we bother is a great wonder to me. Let Japan, Korea, and rest of Asia deal with the despots on their own dime. We'll keep the straights of Hormuz open and the oil can flow to us via Europe and the East Coast of the USA. Nothing they make in asia that we can't make here if we want to, I doubt that can be said for the rest of the countries, including yours.
Good luck mate. And don't be asking for no dam immigration visa to the usa, solve your own problems, make your own jobs, and throw yourself a shrimp on the barbe.
