BA losing money ? how can that be ?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why are you interested anyway? I thought that you were planning to retire at BACE.
Some of us appear to be a bit naive as far as allowances are concerned. Does a businessman include his lunch/dinner expenses as part of his annual salary? I think not!
I suspect that you are actually refering to the flying hours rate (FHR) which varies according to sector length. You do not receive allowances or FHR when you are sick, on leave, in the sim or on a training course.
Sadly, in my previous post, I was including my total income for the comparisons. I did not include the allowances that my friend at UAL receives - so now I feel even worse off!!!
Some of us appear to be a bit naive as far as allowances are concerned. Does a businessman include his lunch/dinner expenses as part of his annual salary? I think not!
I suspect that you are actually refering to the flying hours rate (FHR) which varies according to sector length. You do not receive allowances or FHR when you are sick, on leave, in the sim or on a training course.
Sadly, in my previous post, I was including my total income for the comparisons. I did not include the allowances that my friend at UAL receives - so now I feel even worse off!!!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hot Wings - you obviously find it difficult to answer a straight question don’t you ?!. . . .So let me make it simpler for you, by way of three very easy ones:
A). In the last year how many hours duty did you do ?
B). In the last year how many hours flying did you do ?
C). In the last year what was your TAKE-HOME pay ?
I'm simply trying to get a measure of just how productive are BA crews - compared to the rest of us - and after all it was you who quoted what BALPA (apparently) said - so let's see some proof of that, i.e. put up, or shut up !
A). In the last year how many hours duty did you do ?
B). In the last year how many hours flying did you do ?
C). In the last year what was your TAKE-HOME pay ?
I'm simply trying to get a measure of just how productive are BA crews - compared to the rest of us - and after all it was you who quoted what BALPA (apparently) said - so let's see some proof of that, i.e. put up, or shut up !
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We still haven't answered the original question :
A LGW crew are operating a single sector ...with a report of 07:55 at Heathrow on sunday. So........the whole crew,report at 14:00 on FRIDAY and are then coached to Heathrow
The difference between my world and BA World is would this have happenned if it had been a LHR crew? You look puzzled.
To me Gatwick Heathrow what's the difference? Half the crew live in Luton and the pilots come in from Jersey. Pay mileage allowance if necessary, or refund train tickets if you don't like the M25.
Somebody is saying "We are Gatwick so you are going to have to start things from there." Less likely BA are saying you'll have to do something at Gatwick because we are too stupid to handle you directly at Heathrow.
The point is this is like the 70s.
If I worked for an organisation that is in trouble partly because of circumstances beyond its control, I would expect to get up a bit earlier and go a few extra miles to make things happen. It's about time BA staff started to own problems and use their initiative to solve them.
A LGW crew are operating a single sector ...with a report of 07:55 at Heathrow on sunday. So........the whole crew,report at 14:00 on FRIDAY and are then coached to Heathrow
The difference between my world and BA World is would this have happenned if it had been a LHR crew? You look puzzled.
To me Gatwick Heathrow what's the difference? Half the crew live in Luton and the pilots come in from Jersey. Pay mileage allowance if necessary, or refund train tickets if you don't like the M25.
Somebody is saying "We are Gatwick so you are going to have to start things from there." Less likely BA are saying you'll have to do something at Gatwick because we are too stupid to handle you directly at Heathrow.
The point is this is like the 70s.
If I worked for an organisation that is in trouble partly because of circumstances beyond its control, I would expect to get up a bit earlier and go a few extra miles to make things happen. It's about time BA staff started to own problems and use their initiative to solve them.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moe,. .sorry to break your slumber ! . .My post was factual ,I dropped one of the crew off at LGW to report at 14:00 on Friday, apologise at your leisure.. .Folks we seemed to be diversifying a little bit here , Im sure there must be hundreds of other shameful waste stories, yes i too do Larnaca's and back, without the need to spend a couple of days in a hotel in between. Now of course i would given half a chance, but thats the difference between good business, and blatant indulgence. What about the middle east station where the cabin crew go to the airport in a minibus and the flight crew in a limousine for the same report time, If i didnt own some of BA it would almost be funny ! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
I'm sorry, but I have to agree that some of the working practices which BA has are absolutely ridiculous.
The Larnaca thing is a good example; and no, I don't agree that it should take longer to turn a BA 767 round than a charter 767. On the latter, you have 326 pax to disembark, clean the aircraft and board 326, whereas BA has one third fewer pax. The critical path to a good turnround is pax off, cleaners on, cleaners off, pax on as you can fulfil all of the other functions in tandem. So we are saying either a) that BA pax are slower to disembark than their charter compatriots; or b) the BA cleaners are slower. Laughable either way.
Holding delays ex LHR at approx 15 minutes are often lower than the LGW delays of up to 20 minutes, so that argument doesn't apply either.
There are numerous other idiotic things in BA's agreements which just make me laugh. It's no wonder they can't make money when:
a) EOG pilots are limited to 700 flight hours per year and can only exceed 720 with the full agreement of BALPA and EOG management. I suspect the average utilisation of a Go/easyJet pilot is well on the north side of 800 hours, towards the legal maximum of 900. So BA has instantly sacrificed 23% of its potential pilot productivity - oh, and I forgot to say - sim details and office days count towards your 700 hours at a notional rate of up to four hours per office or sim detail!
b) The wonderful bidding system at LGW (Carnage to its friends) which allows you to bid for - and allocates - nightstops in places where they don't even nightstop aircraft. Nice, low cost philosophy. The principle appears to be that, if you aren't happy with your roster, you will go sick and your productivity will fall, so they give you what you want if you have sufficient seniority to get it. It also lets you choose to operate fewer sectors throughout your working week.
c) If you're replaced by a management pilot for whatever reason on a flight, you can still opt to go along and sit on the jumpseat to claim your allowances!
d) If you get taken off a few days' trip part-way through (e.g. due to late running aircraft) and don't complete the rest of the trip, you still get paid your allowances for sitting at home.
e) The great agreement that cabin crew will be paid up to £38 (£52 for a CSD) for waiting an hour and a half in the crew lounge at Heathrow between flights if they don't have time to go back to the Compass Centre.
f) The crazy agreement that city centre hotels have to be used for crew accommodation, even if you're only on a split duty nightstop. Good, cheap hotels with cheap transport costs they most certainly are not.
g) The crewing of the Middle East routes. A 777 operates Heathrow-Bahrain-Doha-Bahrain-Heathrow almost every day. Now, you would think (given the 6h30 sector to BAH and the 0h40 onwards to DOH) that one crew would take the aircraft LHR-BAH-DOH and then get off, getting back on the following day to fly DOH-BAH-LHR. Common sense. Well, BA crews fly one sector LHR-BAH & get off; operate BAH-DOH-BAH shuttle on the following day; then get a slip day in BAH and operate BAH-LHR eventually on day 5. What should be a three-day trip turns into a five-day trip due to some ridiculous rule about having to get off a long-haul aircraft if it's flown a sector of more than 5h00. A joke - and an inefficient joke at that.
The sooner someone faces facts and realises that these things are costing megabucks, the better. I'm not advocating flogging every pilot or cabin crew member up to the legal limits of CAP371, but I do think that the existing BA agreements are outrageously stacked against the company's ability to compete in the modern day market.
And incidentally, when will Concorde crews start operating LHR-JFK-LHR in a duty day? It's no longer a duty day than your average charter day out to DLM, HER, LCA and the like.
The whole job lot - BALPA, BASSA, CC89 agreements - need to be torn up and a bunch of BA and union people locked in a room for days to renegotiate something sensible to strike a balance between economic reality and the need to ensure your employees have reasonable working conditions.
But when will someone at BA have the balls to actually tackle this issue? People with guts to go out and achieve change at that airline are in noticeably short supply and 9/10ths of this is of management's own making as they are just too scared to tackle these problems head-on.
PS - Before you ask, I don't work for BA, any of its subsidiaries, franchises or associates in any way.
The Larnaca thing is a good example; and no, I don't agree that it should take longer to turn a BA 767 round than a charter 767. On the latter, you have 326 pax to disembark, clean the aircraft and board 326, whereas BA has one third fewer pax. The critical path to a good turnround is pax off, cleaners on, cleaners off, pax on as you can fulfil all of the other functions in tandem. So we are saying either a) that BA pax are slower to disembark than their charter compatriots; or b) the BA cleaners are slower. Laughable either way.
Holding delays ex LHR at approx 15 minutes are often lower than the LGW delays of up to 20 minutes, so that argument doesn't apply either.
There are numerous other idiotic things in BA's agreements which just make me laugh. It's no wonder they can't make money when:
a) EOG pilots are limited to 700 flight hours per year and can only exceed 720 with the full agreement of BALPA and EOG management. I suspect the average utilisation of a Go/easyJet pilot is well on the north side of 800 hours, towards the legal maximum of 900. So BA has instantly sacrificed 23% of its potential pilot productivity - oh, and I forgot to say - sim details and office days count towards your 700 hours at a notional rate of up to four hours per office or sim detail!
b) The wonderful bidding system at LGW (Carnage to its friends) which allows you to bid for - and allocates - nightstops in places where they don't even nightstop aircraft. Nice, low cost philosophy. The principle appears to be that, if you aren't happy with your roster, you will go sick and your productivity will fall, so they give you what you want if you have sufficient seniority to get it. It also lets you choose to operate fewer sectors throughout your working week.
c) If you're replaced by a management pilot for whatever reason on a flight, you can still opt to go along and sit on the jumpseat to claim your allowances!
d) If you get taken off a few days' trip part-way through (e.g. due to late running aircraft) and don't complete the rest of the trip, you still get paid your allowances for sitting at home.
e) The great agreement that cabin crew will be paid up to £38 (£52 for a CSD) for waiting an hour and a half in the crew lounge at Heathrow between flights if they don't have time to go back to the Compass Centre.
f) The crazy agreement that city centre hotels have to be used for crew accommodation, even if you're only on a split duty nightstop. Good, cheap hotels with cheap transport costs they most certainly are not.
g) The crewing of the Middle East routes. A 777 operates Heathrow-Bahrain-Doha-Bahrain-Heathrow almost every day. Now, you would think (given the 6h30 sector to BAH and the 0h40 onwards to DOH) that one crew would take the aircraft LHR-BAH-DOH and then get off, getting back on the following day to fly DOH-BAH-LHR. Common sense. Well, BA crews fly one sector LHR-BAH & get off; operate BAH-DOH-BAH shuttle on the following day; then get a slip day in BAH and operate BAH-LHR eventually on day 5. What should be a three-day trip turns into a five-day trip due to some ridiculous rule about having to get off a long-haul aircraft if it's flown a sector of more than 5h00. A joke - and an inefficient joke at that.
The sooner someone faces facts and realises that these things are costing megabucks, the better. I'm not advocating flogging every pilot or cabin crew member up to the legal limits of CAP371, but I do think that the existing BA agreements are outrageously stacked against the company's ability to compete in the modern day market.
And incidentally, when will Concorde crews start operating LHR-JFK-LHR in a duty day? It's no longer a duty day than your average charter day out to DLM, HER, LCA and the like.
The whole job lot - BALPA, BASSA, CC89 agreements - need to be torn up and a bunch of BA and union people locked in a room for days to renegotiate something sensible to strike a balance between economic reality and the need to ensure your employees have reasonable working conditions.
But when will someone at BA have the balls to actually tackle this issue? People with guts to go out and achieve change at that airline are in noticeably short supply and 9/10ths of this is of management's own making as they are just too scared to tackle these problems head-on.
PS - Before you ask, I don't work for BA, any of its subsidiaries, franchises or associates in any way.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1) The CAA have never liked having crews based at two different bases for longhaul ops, which would operate close to the FTLs if they their duty day starts at a different base.
2)The reason for two days early at a LHR is most probably cover for the Saturdays operation.
3) BA pilots (espc LH) are some of the MOST productive crews around. A substantial amount of -400 pilots are averaging 850-890 hours this year. 777 folks are not far behind. When you couple this with the fact that NO other flag carrier pay their 777/747-400 pilots less, (Air India) you can see that BA gets amazing productivity from their pilots. This has been proved IREFUTABLY by BALPA, by the way of significant research, rather than by the way of peoples half cooked ideas and ‘Chinese whispers’ about how little BA pilots work and how much they get overpaid.
. .4) You are all missing the point, sniping at BAs 'better' deal than other carriers. (in the UK market place only that is…). The top paying airline will always have a positive affect on the pay of other airlines within its region. As long as people leave charter carriers/BMI/VS etc to go to BA, the other operators will be forced to review their packages. Its called market forces, and it benefits those in BACE, just as much as it does receiving mainline deals.
PS. the crew ratios havent changed over the past few years, but somehow, despite selling large lumps of the company off, the headcount has gone up by 10,000 or was it 15,000? And if AA/UA/CX etc made money in the 90's with Skippers on $300,000 - $350,000 operating the 777, I think that crew remuneration has less bearing on the balance sheet than the grossly inflated managment structure.
2)The reason for two days early at a LHR is most probably cover for the Saturdays operation.
3) BA pilots (espc LH) are some of the MOST productive crews around. A substantial amount of -400 pilots are averaging 850-890 hours this year. 777 folks are not far behind. When you couple this with the fact that NO other flag carrier pay their 777/747-400 pilots less, (Air India) you can see that BA gets amazing productivity from their pilots. This has been proved IREFUTABLY by BALPA, by the way of significant research, rather than by the way of peoples half cooked ideas and ‘Chinese whispers’ about how little BA pilots work and how much they get overpaid.
. .4) You are all missing the point, sniping at BAs 'better' deal than other carriers. (in the UK market place only that is…). The top paying airline will always have a positive affect on the pay of other airlines within its region. As long as people leave charter carriers/BMI/VS etc to go to BA, the other operators will be forced to review their packages. Its called market forces, and it benefits those in BACE, just as much as it does receiving mainline deals.
PS. the crew ratios havent changed over the past few years, but somehow, despite selling large lumps of the company off, the headcount has gone up by 10,000 or was it 15,000? And if AA/UA/CX etc made money in the 90's with Skippers on $300,000 - $350,000 operating the 777, I think that crew remuneration has less bearing on the balance sheet than the grossly inflated managment structure.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
King Chile - your keen interest in my personal annual hours and pay is hardly scientific is it? If you wish to find out the facts either email BALPA directly or take the time to conduct a survey of the 3,500 flight crew at BA! Our payscales are also available on the BALPA website. You too, seem to have fallen for the Daily Mail line that we all make £200,000pa.
Also, in any month, on the 744, between 10 and 30% of the pilots are in danger of exceeding the 900 hours annual flight time limit. We cannot legally be any more productive.
Also, in any month, on the 744, between 10 and 30% of the pilots are in danger of exceeding the 900 hours annual flight time limit. We cannot legally be any more productive.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Peoples Republic of EU
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote] that NO other flag carrier pay their 777/747-400 pilots less <hr></blockquote>
gotajob4us,
I fail to see the reason for the comparison with other flag carriers? What makes you think British Airways is the flag carrier for the UK (do virgin & bmi not also paint flags on their aircraft? Surely a comparison should be done with a similar competitor based in the same economic area?
Virgin pilot's are as productive as BA's pilots and at probably half the cost.
Hot Wings,
900hrs per year on long haul is not difficult to achieve, let's face it going in a straight line for 9-12hrs is hardly stressful and if you are stressed by this then you should have stayed shorthaul!
I applaud your T&C's, think they're great and would love to be on them myself but I live & work in the real world and unfortunately I think you chaps will too in the not too distant future.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Scottie ]</p>
gotajob4us,
I fail to see the reason for the comparison with other flag carriers? What makes you think British Airways is the flag carrier for the UK (do virgin & bmi not also paint flags on their aircraft? Surely a comparison should be done with a similar competitor based in the same economic area?
Virgin pilot's are as productive as BA's pilots and at probably half the cost.
Hot Wings,
900hrs per year on long haul is not difficult to achieve, let's face it going in a straight line for 9-12hrs is hardly stressful and if you are stressed by this then you should have stayed shorthaul!
I applaud your T&C's, think they're great and would love to be on them myself but I live & work in the real world and unfortunately I think you chaps will too in the not too distant future.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Scottie ]</p>
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quote:. .--------------------------------------------------------------------------------. . that NO other flag carrier pay their 777/747-400 pilots less . .--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gotajob4us,
Why are you comparing your salary with other countries airlines? surely your comparison should be with the other UK airlines. My salary at BA as an Engineer is about 1/3rd it would be if I worked for one of the big American carriers - but compared to the pay scales at other UK airlines I am only slightly behind.
gotajob4us,
Why are you comparing your salary with other countries airlines? surely your comparison should be with the other UK airlines. My salary at BA as an Engineer is about 1/3rd it would be if I worked for one of the big American carriers - but compared to the pay scales at other UK airlines I am only slightly behind.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: LGW
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
King Chile said "And too my knowledge none of the main UK carriers, charter or scheduled, require one to bust FTL's,".. .Well that's bollox.. .I spent 5 years with two charter airlines who would ALWAYS assume that you'd be prepared to go 3 hours into discretion. (sometimes illegally before leaving base!). . .Believe me there is an awful lot of pressure applied.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Land ASAP: not sure where you are getting your figures... <a href="http://www.statistics.gov.uk" target="_blank">www.statistics.gov.uk</a> and the obvious links from there show that the average weekly gross earnings for all UK adults in full time employment in April 2000 (the latest validated figures - the 2001 census is not yet published)was GBP 419.70 which is a long way short of 32,000pa
Whoa, I didn't think we were talking about busting FTLs - I thought this discussion was about working practices which are more restrictive than CAP371.
And I really don't follow this argument about the CAA not liking crews being based at two airports for long-haul ops. The criteria for ground positioning before and after duty are clearly laid down in CAP371 and I'm sure there are a number of precedents of airlines having long-haul crew bases at more than one UK airport!
And I really don't follow this argument about the CAA not liking crews being based at two airports for long-haul ops. The criteria for ground positioning before and after duty are clearly laid down in CAP371 and I'm sure there are a number of precedents of airlines having long-haul crew bases at more than one UK airport!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies - To quote the National Statistics Web Site
Salaries for male staff reached £24,300 in April, with men in non-manual jobs taking home an average of more than £30,000 a year.
Salaries for male staff reached £24,300 in April, with men in non-manual jobs taking home an average of more than £30,000 a year.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: London
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An insight into productivity at BA :
I've just done a CAA medical so I've had cause to check my hours in the last 6 months - 448:04.
These are flying hours.
This figure would have been approx 50 greater had I not dropped 3 recent trips due training/excess hours/security scare.(Oh and another 18 hour trip lost while stuck in LAX 9/11)
Basic pay (B scale) - 38k
I'm ex charter , pleased to be here , could work less , wouldn't mind being paid more.
By all means keep knocking if you think the above represents a gravy train but as I cannot legally do any more work.
I've just done a CAA medical so I've had cause to check my hours in the last 6 months - 448:04.
These are flying hours.
This figure would have been approx 50 greater had I not dropped 3 recent trips due training/excess hours/security scare.(Oh and another 18 hour trip lost while stuck in LAX 9/11)
Basic pay (B scale) - 38k
I'm ex charter , pleased to be here , could work less , wouldn't mind being paid more.
By all means keep knocking if you think the above represents a gravy train but as I cannot legally do any more work.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flightrider, allow me to respond to your points.... .<ul type="square">[*]The Larnaca thing is a good example; and no, I don't agree that it should take longer to turn a BA 767 round than a charter 767. On the latter, you have 326 pax to disembark, clean the aircraft and board 326, whereas BA has one third fewer pax. The critical path to a good turnround is pax off, cleaners on, cleaners off, pax on as you can fulfil all of the other functions in tandem. So we are saying either a) that BA pax are slower to disembark than their charter compatriots; or b) the BA cleaners are slower...Please tell me which company flies 767's to LCA from LGW? I know some who use 757's. .[*]Holding delays ex LHR at approx 15 minutes are often lower than the LGW delays of up to 20 minutes, so that argument doesn't apply either.. .You are kidding aren't you? That LGW has more holding than LHR. Been to LHR have you?. .[*]EOG pilots are limited to 700 flight hours per year and can only exceed 720 with the full agreement of BALPA and EOG management...and sim details and office days count towards your 700 hours at a notional rate of up to four hours per office or sim detail!. .Pardon? It is true that when we are in the simulator we are on duty, aren't you? But that duty is not involved in the FTL's. BTW, from June 1999 to June 2000 I amassed 820 hours flying on a BA mainline S/H contract. In the following 12 months I flew 690. Who's fault? . .[*]The wonderful bidding system at LGW (Carnage to its friends) which allows you to bid for - and allocates - nightstops in places where they don't even nightstop aircraft. Nice, low cost philosophy. The principle appears to be that, if you aren't happy with your roster, you will go sick and your productivity will fall, so they give you what you want if you have sufficient seniority to get it. It also lets you choose to operate fewer sectors throughout your working week.. .Did I mention LGW rostering programs in my posting? I work to Bidline rules. They are the "fairest work allocation program in the Aviation world" according to IALPA.. .[*]If you're replaced by a management pilot for whatever reason on a flight, you can still opt to go along and sit on the jumpseat to claim your allowances!. .Management have many opportunities to 'extract' trips weeks before work is dealt out so why would they nick a trip at the last minute? It could well be an abuse of their authority. Pilots rarely use this clause. But why do managers take a trip at the last minute? I had a Milan nightstop taken from me when a succesful football team from the North qualified for the next round of the Champions league after the extracting had finished. . .[*]If you get taken off a few days' trip part-way through (e.g. due to late running aircraft) and don't complete the rest of the trip, you still get paid your allowances for sitting at home.. .I don't know who told you this but this is cr$p I'm afraid. .[*]The great agreement that cabin crew will be paid up to £38 (£52 for a CSD) for waiting an hour and a half in the crew lounge at Heathrow between flights if they don't have time to go back to the Compass Centre.. .This is a pilots forum, so ask the C/C about Central Area Turnaround payments on another website. .[*]The crazy agreement that city centre hotels have to be used for crew accommodation, even if you're only on a split duty nightstop. Good, cheap hotels with cheap transport costs they most certainly are not. . .Sad but true this. Shows the level of trust BALPA has of the senior managers, who will quite likely make us ALWAYS stay in the airport Travelodge once a split duty crew stays there.. .[*]The crewing of the Middle East routes. A 777 operates Heathrow-Bahrain-Doha-Bahrain-Heathrow almost every day. Now, you would think (given the 6h30 sector to BAH and the 0h40 onwards to DOH) that one crew would take the aircraft LHR-BAH-DOH and then get off, getting back on the following day to fly DOH-BAH-LHR. Common sense. Well, BA crews fly one sector LHR-BAH & get off; operate BAH-DOH-BAH shuttle on the following day; then get a slip day in BAH and operate BAH-LHR eventually on day 5. What should be a three-day trip turns into a five-day trip due to some ridiculous rule about having to get off a long-haul aircraft if it's flown a sector of more than 5h00. A joke - and an inefficient joke at that.. .That could be another question to ask BASSA (C/C), not BALPA!. .[*]And incidentally, when will Concorde crews start operating LHR-JFK-LHR in a duty day? It's no longer a duty day than your average charter day out to DLM, HER, LCA and the like.. .Good question this. I suspect that it is the Upper Level radiation that comes into play but do not quote me . .[*]The whole job lot - BALPA, BASSA, CC89 agreements - need to be torn up and a bunch of BA and union people locked in a room for days to renegotiate something sensible to strike a balance between economic reality and the need to ensure your employees have reasonable working conditions.. .I agree. .[*]But when will someone at BA have the balls to actually tackle this issue? People with guts to go out and achieve change at that airline are in noticeably short supply and 9/10ths of this is of management's own making as they are just too scared to tackle these problems head-on.. .Hmmmm. I'll pass that to the board. Openess, honesty and a long period without the dirty trick brigade getting involved? We pilots would love to see such an era!. .[/list]
Have a pop at the appropriate when answering the title of this thread. We all bear some of the blame, however the pilots are not as blameworthy as you all seem to think. The good days ended in 1991.
Have a pop at the appropriate when answering the title of this thread. We all bear some of the blame, however the pilots are not as blameworthy as you all seem to think. The good days ended in 1991.
Land ASAP,
a) 767s to LCA - Britannia and Airtours. They each have one 767-300 roundtrip per week ex LGW to LCA this summer and have operated numerous in the past, all on a straight crew duty day.
b) At certain times of day, I'm not kidding that LGW has more holding than LHR. I've been to both - frequently.
c) Yes, sim time does count as duty time. But it doesn't count towards your annual flying limit of 900hrs, as in the BAEG agreement. Are you on BAEG or mainline contract? It seems as though there are some differences in the contractual terms between the two, which would indicate that BAEG are less productive than mainline, when in fact they are the ones having to fight easyJet on costs at LGW!
d) No you didn't mention LGW rostering programmes but I did - as an example of what I see to be gross inefficiency contributing to BA's losses.
e) The bit about being taken off the trip and still getting your allowances isn't crap under the BAEG agreement. It may be for mainline but at least part of BA is working to this - and that is a part of BA which is allegedly losing a lot of money, hence it is reasonable to discuss it here under the thread title.
f) Crewing of the Middle East routes isn't a BASSA issue as the cabin crew do work the sensible pattern I outlined and take the aircraft all the way through to its end station. The pattern is different for flight crew and so it's a BALPA issue!
Personally, you can't blame pilots for the state of the agreement. It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas if they opted to give up a number of the clauses in the scheduling agreements and I wouldn't expect them to do that voluntarily for one minute.
However, I don't think the current situation with regard to some of these issues can continue ad infinitum. It has to change otherwise BA's cost base will never come down to allow it to compete profitably with its rivals.
To achieve a change, you need a management which is pre-disposed towards achieving change (as opposed to inertia at present) and a group of people on the other side of the table who accept that some change is necessary. At the moment, you have a significant proportion of the 50,000 people in BA believing the worst thing that can happen this year is that BA doesn't make a profit. It could be far worse than that; and the sooner all involved sit round a table to agree something which will enhance job security, the better BA's long-term prospects (and those of its employees) will be.
a) 767s to LCA - Britannia and Airtours. They each have one 767-300 roundtrip per week ex LGW to LCA this summer and have operated numerous in the past, all on a straight crew duty day.
b) At certain times of day, I'm not kidding that LGW has more holding than LHR. I've been to both - frequently.
c) Yes, sim time does count as duty time. But it doesn't count towards your annual flying limit of 900hrs, as in the BAEG agreement. Are you on BAEG or mainline contract? It seems as though there are some differences in the contractual terms between the two, which would indicate that BAEG are less productive than mainline, when in fact they are the ones having to fight easyJet on costs at LGW!
d) No you didn't mention LGW rostering programmes but I did - as an example of what I see to be gross inefficiency contributing to BA's losses.
e) The bit about being taken off the trip and still getting your allowances isn't crap under the BAEG agreement. It may be for mainline but at least part of BA is working to this - and that is a part of BA which is allegedly losing a lot of money, hence it is reasonable to discuss it here under the thread title.
f) Crewing of the Middle East routes isn't a BASSA issue as the cabin crew do work the sensible pattern I outlined and take the aircraft all the way through to its end station. The pattern is different for flight crew and so it's a BALPA issue!
Personally, you can't blame pilots for the state of the agreement. It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas if they opted to give up a number of the clauses in the scheduling agreements and I wouldn't expect them to do that voluntarily for one minute.
However, I don't think the current situation with regard to some of these issues can continue ad infinitum. It has to change otherwise BA's cost base will never come down to allow it to compete profitably with its rivals.
To achieve a change, you need a management which is pre-disposed towards achieving change (as opposed to inertia at present) and a group of people on the other side of the table who accept that some change is necessary. At the moment, you have a significant proportion of the 50,000 people in BA believing the worst thing that can happen this year is that BA doesn't make a profit. It could be far worse than that; and the sooner all involved sit round a table to agree something which will enhance job security, the better BA's long-term prospects (and those of its employees) will be.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunno now
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, Flightrider - easyJet Pilots flying north of 800hrs a year? I wish !!!. .I fly for the Orange lot, and rarely do more than 50hrs a month!! And as for all the anti BA lot, I have many friends on the 747-400 and 777 (with BA) who are working to the absolute max. If BA are losing cash, its not because of the flight crew - it's waterworld who are p****** it down a drain. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I and my colleagues are extremely grateful for the concern for BA's finances shown by our fellow PPRuNers. Even though the decline of BA would have beneficial effects on your own prospects, your suggestions to make BA more competitive show true altruism. Thank you.
Airclues
Airclues
Controversial, moi?
I really find this thread quite astonishing.
There are one or two areas of BA flight crew agreements that might seem a little over the top but in general that is not the case.
To be blaming the company's woes on flight crew is lamentable and just plain wrong.
But what really troubles me is that many on this thread wish us all to work to the appalling levels of some charter operators (there and back LCAs in the middle of the night etc.), stay in cheap and cheerful hotels (the idea is that we are supposed to be able to rest) and reduce the amount we get paid!
Sorry but if I was a passenger I would like to think that the pilots were properly rested, had not done consecutive, long, gruelling and tedious night duties before making an approach in demanding conditions and I have absolutely no problem with somebody being paid well for a job that carries much responsibility. Unfortunately in our case that responsibilty is so little understood by those that don't have it.
Fortunately we do not yet live in a socialist utopia despite the best efforts of President Blair.
There are one or two areas of BA flight crew agreements that might seem a little over the top but in general that is not the case.
To be blaming the company's woes on flight crew is lamentable and just plain wrong.
But what really troubles me is that many on this thread wish us all to work to the appalling levels of some charter operators (there and back LCAs in the middle of the night etc.), stay in cheap and cheerful hotels (the idea is that we are supposed to be able to rest) and reduce the amount we get paid!
Sorry but if I was a passenger I would like to think that the pilots were properly rested, had not done consecutive, long, gruelling and tedious night duties before making an approach in demanding conditions and I have absolutely no problem with somebody being paid well for a job that carries much responsibility. Unfortunately in our case that responsibilty is so little understood by those that don't have it.
Fortunately we do not yet live in a socialist utopia despite the best efforts of President Blair.