Gentlemen ,Remove those turbans
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Back to the original topic: Here's an example that I would hope makes my opinion clear:
Several years ago, I lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and was accompianied by my wife. We lived there by choice, under a 1 year contract, then right after, for another year under another contract. Once again, this was by our choice.
Did my wife have the right to dress as she wanted, western style, while in that country? did I, for that matter? No! Instead we had to abide by the local customs and dress accordingly. Many times we observed the religious police (mutawa) physically assulting western women in the market areas for lack of compliance with local dress codes. (those of you who have been there know what I'm talking about)
Now I know Saudi isn't Turban Town, and I don't know what the local customs there are for western residents, but I suspect there are parallels between the two places.
In the USA we of course allow much more freedom of expression and beliefs than some of these other countries. In fact, that may be one of the reasons many of these people come here to work or live.
However, even though we don't have a "close minded" (for lack of a better way to say it here) dress code, out of courtesy and respect for our western culture as to what happened on 9/11, what better way for these people to show their unified support for our country, indeed for all of the free world by giving up their personal choice of dress if only for a short time.
Besides showing pride and respect for their "adopted" country of residence, dressing to "blend in" with the locals could possibly ease their personal lives for the next few months or so.
Before anyone starts in on me with the "they have a right" bandwagon, let's not forget we all used to have many "rights" before 9/11 which we no longer have.
So I guess my point is, if these folks want to live here in the west, why not try to blend in voluntarily, to show that they're 100% with the program.
Several years ago, I lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and was accompianied by my wife. We lived there by choice, under a 1 year contract, then right after, for another year under another contract. Once again, this was by our choice.
Did my wife have the right to dress as she wanted, western style, while in that country? did I, for that matter? No! Instead we had to abide by the local customs and dress accordingly. Many times we observed the religious police (mutawa) physically assulting western women in the market areas for lack of compliance with local dress codes. (those of you who have been there know what I'm talking about)
Now I know Saudi isn't Turban Town, and I don't know what the local customs there are for western residents, but I suspect there are parallels between the two places.
In the USA we of course allow much more freedom of expression and beliefs than some of these other countries. In fact, that may be one of the reasons many of these people come here to work or live.
However, even though we don't have a "close minded" (for lack of a better way to say it here) dress code, out of courtesy and respect for our western culture as to what happened on 9/11, what better way for these people to show their unified support for our country, indeed for all of the free world by giving up their personal choice of dress if only for a short time.
Besides showing pride and respect for their "adopted" country of residence, dressing to "blend in" with the locals could possibly ease their personal lives for the next few months or so.
Before anyone starts in on me with the "they have a right" bandwagon, let's not forget we all used to have many "rights" before 9/11 which we no longer have.
So I guess my point is, if these folks want to live here in the west, why not try to blend in voluntarily, to show that they're 100% with the program.
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Interesting to see the one or two people here are happily reverting to good old Anti Americanism. It's so comfortable and safe isn't it? Perhaps you need to be reminded what happened on Sept 11th. Remember they are still digging shattered bodies out to of the remains of the WTC and the fires have yet to go out. I know which side I'm on, do you?
Blacksheep, in relation to your reference to the photo of American civil war soldiers in Middle Eastern type uniform. I'm afraid the truth makes your political point spurious.
In fact those soldiers were most likely Caucasion and European. At the time French military fashion was very much in vogue, standard US uniforms very much reflected the French style, witness the kepi(hat) worn by both sides in the war and things like the cut of the uniform and rank insignia. Also copied were the uniforms of certain French Middle Eastern colonial troops, the 'Zouaves'. Several volunteer units on both sides wore Zouave uniforms at the start of the war. The Pennsylvanians being one example. There were quite a few Zouave regiments formed all of the them manned by white Europeans.
In fact even in the French army of the time, the Zouave regiments consisted entirely of Frenchmen as did several Zouave units of the Confederate army particularly from Louisiana.
Rather spoils the the thrust of your argument doesn't it? It also proves again that the wearing of a turban does not not imply a middle eastern connection.
Actually it does rather prove the western tendency to not just tolerate but even adopt the best attributes of other cultures. Which brings us back to the point of this post, that fact that many of us consider it outrageous that Sikhs were treated in this way. This goes against all the values we hold dear in the West. If only other cultures and religions were so tolerant. Isn't that the point of it all?
America was not so much attacked for what it DID but for what it IS. A bastion of relative freedom and tolerance in a world full of extremists and religious bigotry. The same could be said of western Europe and other outposts of freedom and democracy out there in the world. How many of you really want to live in a kind of society all too common in the Middle East. Dictatorships, despotic monarchies and religious zealotry are the norm. Why do you think so many people from that part of the world are battering down the gates of Europe to get away from that kind of madness?
Our society is flawed but at least we know that, can that be said of others?
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]
Blacksheep, in relation to your reference to the photo of American civil war soldiers in Middle Eastern type uniform. I'm afraid the truth makes your political point spurious.
In fact those soldiers were most likely Caucasion and European. At the time French military fashion was very much in vogue, standard US uniforms very much reflected the French style, witness the kepi(hat) worn by both sides in the war and things like the cut of the uniform and rank insignia. Also copied were the uniforms of certain French Middle Eastern colonial troops, the 'Zouaves'. Several volunteer units on both sides wore Zouave uniforms at the start of the war. The Pennsylvanians being one example. There were quite a few Zouave regiments formed all of the them manned by white Europeans.
In fact even in the French army of the time, the Zouave regiments consisted entirely of Frenchmen as did several Zouave units of the Confederate army particularly from Louisiana.
Rather spoils the the thrust of your argument doesn't it? It also proves again that the wearing of a turban does not not imply a middle eastern connection.
Actually it does rather prove the western tendency to not just tolerate but even adopt the best attributes of other cultures. Which brings us back to the point of this post, that fact that many of us consider it outrageous that Sikhs were treated in this way. This goes against all the values we hold dear in the West. If only other cultures and religions were so tolerant. Isn't that the point of it all?
America was not so much attacked for what it DID but for what it IS. A bastion of relative freedom and tolerance in a world full of extremists and religious bigotry. The same could be said of western Europe and other outposts of freedom and democracy out there in the world. How many of you really want to live in a kind of society all too common in the Middle East. Dictatorships, despotic monarchies and religious zealotry are the norm. Why do you think so many people from that part of the world are battering down the gates of Europe to get away from that kind of madness?
Our society is flawed but at least we know that, can that be said of others?
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]
Cunning Artificer
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But Turbans are authorised headgear for soldiers of the United States Army! See this photograph of "Taliban" soldiers of Company F of the 114th Pennsylvania Infantry... 
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...sf=4a40017:@@@
Get in touch with your cultural heritage at the Library of Congress. Education is the enemy of bigotry...
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http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...sf=4a40017:@@@
Get in touch with your cultural heritage at the Library of Congress. Education is the enemy of bigotry...
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Downin3green, interesting post with some valid points however you are comparing a non-democratic country with the worlds largest democracy. Surely we should be advocating that the rest of the world follow the shining example of civil liberties available in the US as opposed to trying to supress those liberties to come in-line with other non-democratic countries. The great thing is that irrespective of color, race or religion we are all the same in the US, enjoy the same rights, as well as the same freedom of speech. By asking people to change that we are supressing the very foundations of our free society.
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Capt A,
I agree, however, what I am saying is we all choose to show our support in our own way. As others have pointed out, there had been cheering from some "arab" airport workers when news of this disaster was broadcast. Others have said they would like to see more denounciations of the attacks from the muslim community.
I am saying, as a gesture of support, the turban wearers could voluntairly remove their turbans when travelling.
To force them to do this would certainly create more problems (civil rights, etc) than it would be worth.
However, applying the same standards to everyone, such as "no headgear" on aircraft would not only eliminate the turbans, but also NRA Baseball caps, and hopefully, our hats as well...
I agree, however, what I am saying is we all choose to show our support in our own way. As others have pointed out, there had been cheering from some "arab" airport workers when news of this disaster was broadcast. Others have said they would like to see more denounciations of the attacks from the muslim community.
I am saying, as a gesture of support, the turban wearers could voluntairly remove their turbans when travelling.
To force them to do this would certainly create more problems (civil rights, etc) than it would be worth.
However, applying the same standards to everyone, such as "no headgear" on aircraft would not only eliminate the turbans, but also NRA Baseball caps, and hopefully, our hats as well...
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Actually, Company F of the 114th Pennsylvania Infantry is (was) a Company of Zouaves not "Talibans"
"Education is the enemy of bigotry..."
Nice try! Blacksheep
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]
"Education is the enemy of bigotry..."
Nice try! Blacksheep
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]
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Thats why "Taliban" was in inverted commas. "Zouaves" is a descriptive word for members of the Kabyle tribe of northern Algeria. The men in the photos are wearing turbans as part of their uniform while serving in an active unit of the Army of the Potomac - United States soldiers. The photographs were taken at the Union Army headquarters at Petersburg during the siege. Why should they remove their turbans?
While we are on the subject, "Taliban" is now equated with terrorists when it is simply the plural of the word for a student. I do rememember a bunch of students terrorising the military at Kent State University back in the sixties when the US military response was to shoot at them with live ammunition. The key word then wasn't 'Taliban' but 'Commie' or 'Pinko' Do the US armed forces have a problem with students? Whatever, no Afghans were listed among the terrorists who carried out the 911 attacks and the only casualties seen on TV so far are all civilians.
Now, I'm all in favour of striking at the Al Qaida 'fighters' in Afghanistan or wherever else they are to be found. Let them have a taste of their own medicine. But someone in the US Government needs to get the US military's image machine working soon, if they are to hold the 'coalition' together for much longer.
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[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]
While we are on the subject, "Taliban" is now equated with terrorists when it is simply the plural of the word for a student. I do rememember a bunch of students terrorising the military at Kent State University back in the sixties when the US military response was to shoot at them with live ammunition. The key word then wasn't 'Taliban' but 'Commie' or 'Pinko' Do the US armed forces have a problem with students? Whatever, no Afghans were listed among the terrorists who carried out the 911 attacks and the only casualties seen on TV so far are all civilians.
Now, I'm all in favour of striking at the Al Qaida 'fighters' in Afghanistan or wherever else they are to be found. Let them have a taste of their own medicine. But someone in the US Government needs to get the US military's image machine working soon, if they are to hold the 'coalition' together for much longer.
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[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]
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Right after the Sept 11 attacks, the sympathizers of the Al Quaida came out of the woodwork, and the treasonous b**t**ds called for Jihad in sympathy with Osama. Nothing succeeds like success; his attacks worked.
Now, those forces are on the run; heard any more Moslem 'Brits' foaming at the mouth to get to Afghanistan for Jihad in the last 2 days? Again, nothing succeeds like success. Problem is, they have shown their hand, and it won't be forgotten.
Now, those forces are on the run; heard any more Moslem 'Brits' foaming at the mouth to get to Afghanistan for Jihad in the last 2 days? Again, nothing succeeds like success. Problem is, they have shown their hand, and it won't be forgotten.
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Funny thing is, so many of the 'friendly' troops that are moving south and chasing the Taliban/Al Qaida seem to be wearing turbans and sporting beards. They pray towards Mecca five times a day as well. I don't suppose they could be Muslims by any chance? Do you still want them to remove the turbans or are you just happy that they are doing all the foot slogging?
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