Corporate? MD11 at Heathrow
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Corporate? MD11 at Heathrow
Whilst at work today, a few colleagues and i just caught a brief glimpse,of what we think was an MD11 landing on 27R at about 1-30pm. Aircraft was painted in a "stripey pattern" of blues/browns/silver etc.....Can anyone let us know if it is a corporate jet or an airline "special". Thanks
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Do you mean this one?
Photos: McDonnell Douglas MD-11 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Its Saudi Royalty.
Mutt
Photos: McDonnell Douglas MD-11 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Its Saudi Royalty.
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 3rd Apr 2009 at 17:46.
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The Asasco Aviation Company run this MD and a Challenger 604. It's a private corporate operator based in Jeddah which is owned, and only operates for,the Bin Shuaileh Group,a Saudi-Yemeni based company who's business interests range from baby clothes to bull dozers. The MD seems to spend most of its time in Switzerland,Paris and Spain. Sounds like they are getting a new (ish) 340. But I might be wrong!
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mutt,
The MD-11 was designed and built as an airliner and the type is classified as such regardless of use. The fact it has interior fitments changed, different ancillary equipment to the aircraft in airline service and is operated as a corporate jet does not make it anything other than an airliner.
Ditto for 707s, 720s, 727s, DC9s, MD87s, A340s etc all of which have been converted to corporate use after airline use.
Purpose built corporate jets based on airliners include the Boeing Business Jet and the A319CJ which have taken the basics of an airliner but have been specifically built from new to offer different performance and features to their airliner cousins.
A minor distinction, perhaps, but a very real one.
The MD-11 was designed and built as an airliner and the type is classified as such regardless of use. The fact it has interior fitments changed, different ancillary equipment to the aircraft in airline service and is operated as a corporate jet does not make it anything other than an airliner.
Ditto for 707s, 720s, 727s, DC9s, MD87s, A340s etc all of which have been converted to corporate use after airline use.
Purpose built corporate jets based on airliners include the Boeing Business Jet and the A319CJ which have taken the basics of an airliner but have been specifically built from new to offer different performance and features to their airliner cousins.
A minor distinction, perhaps, but a very real one.
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Philky, interesting point, but what would you call the B747-8... there are none in passenger service, considering that we have purchased 1 as a VVIP aircraft, should we consider it a corporate jet or an airliner?
The 2 MD11's were never in passenger service, but I will concede that they were originally ordered as passenger aircraft.
Mutt
The 2 MD11's were never in passenger service, but I will concede that they were originally ordered as passenger aircraft.
Mutt
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Good question. Is the aircraft going to be specially built from the ground up with significant performance and equipment differences to the airline version designed in or is the aircraft going to be finished as an airliner type airframe and then shipped to have an executive interior and other goodies added, any performance benefits coming as a result of the different interior/fewer pax/less to carry in the hold?
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Ditto for 707s, 720s, 727s, DC9s, MD87s, A340s etc all of which have been converted to corporate use after airline use.
I can offhand think of at least four DC-9's and at least two B707's that were never delivered as airliners, never used in airline service, period...but were originally ordered and delivered as corporate aircraft.
You have to be around in aviation long enough to know the complete score.
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How does hobby interest since 1955, dedicated historian since 1965 and working with the industry for the best part of 25 years strike you as regards to "long enough"?
Apart from which, by definition you are still wrong.
As I said in previous posts, corporate aircraft which are designed from the ground up as business tools for executives (e.g. Dassault, Grumman, Lear etc.) are corporate aircraft.. The A319CJ and BBJ can also be classed as corporate jets as, whilst derived from airliner designs, they have been modified and marketed as a different aircraft due to performance and other factors being changed in the basic design and are different enough from the airliner for the manufacturer to differentiate by designation and certification.
As for the Boeing and Douglas/MDD airliners delivered to private individuals/business house customers (and, of course for heads of state) your list is very short compared to the actual numbers built For instance how about the various Boeing and MDD aircraft for the Saudi Royal Family?.
You can also throw in BAC 1-11s, the odd Caravelle, a certain Saudi Comet, not to mention various Airbus types - all of which were built for non airline customers but all came down the line as standard airframes and were subject to changes at periods during build and were then sent away for major work at specialist companies who fitted the interiors, tweaked the performance or just put on a special paint scheme.
At no time did any of the manufacturers claim these were, or are, corporate jets as distinct from airliners. They acknowledge them as standard aircraft used for corporate purposes.
Even the two USAF Presidential 747s are listed by Boeing as B747-2G4B - which is how they left the line. The extensive work carried out afterwards was classed as a customer conversion.
It's a fine but accurate differentiation.
Apart from which, by definition you are still wrong.
As I said in previous posts, corporate aircraft which are designed from the ground up as business tools for executives (e.g. Dassault, Grumman, Lear etc.) are corporate aircraft.. The A319CJ and BBJ can also be classed as corporate jets as, whilst derived from airliner designs, they have been modified and marketed as a different aircraft due to performance and other factors being changed in the basic design and are different enough from the airliner for the manufacturer to differentiate by designation and certification.
As for the Boeing and Douglas/MDD airliners delivered to private individuals/business house customers (and, of course for heads of state) your list is very short compared to the actual numbers built For instance how about the various Boeing and MDD aircraft for the Saudi Royal Family?.
You can also throw in BAC 1-11s, the odd Caravelle, a certain Saudi Comet, not to mention various Airbus types - all of which were built for non airline customers but all came down the line as standard airframes and were subject to changes at periods during build and were then sent away for major work at specialist companies who fitted the interiors, tweaked the performance or just put on a special paint scheme.
At no time did any of the manufacturers claim these were, or are, corporate jets as distinct from airliners. They acknowledge them as standard aircraft used for corporate purposes.
Even the two USAF Presidential 747s are listed by Boeing as B747-2G4B - which is how they left the line. The extensive work carried out afterwards was classed as a customer conversion.
It's a fine but accurate differentiation.
Last edited by philbky; 4th Apr 2009 at 18:59.
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Just to drift the thread a tad and add some late 1950s, early 1960s history, the On Mark Marksman was sold as the ultimate corporate transport of the time to the US business market.
Whilst earlier convesrsions of WW2 and late 1940s military airframes had been just that, so that the aircraft were basically bombers/attack aircraft with seats and some soundproofing, On Mark, which held an A-26 spare parts manufacturing licence from Douglas and knew the military version inside out, decided that the spare airframes coming up for disposal had some potential to provide fast, exclusive, personal transport.
They decided to totally rework the airframe. The first iteration was the Marketeer which was unpressurised. The ultimate was the Marksman which was pressurised and was basically, when On Mark had finished with it, a new aircraft.
Both types looked like Invaders, stripped of guns and warpaint, both sounded like Invaders and started life as such but the Marksman was so different it gained a supplementary type certificate.
Similarly today the BBJ has a seperate certificate as it is an amalgam of both the 737-700 and 737-800 and the A319CJ is also certificated differently to the A319. In contrast the earlier Boeing, Douglas, Airbus, BAC, DH etc. types used as executive jets were all certificated as airliners.
Whilst earlier convesrsions of WW2 and late 1940s military airframes had been just that, so that the aircraft were basically bombers/attack aircraft with seats and some soundproofing, On Mark, which held an A-26 spare parts manufacturing licence from Douglas and knew the military version inside out, decided that the spare airframes coming up for disposal had some potential to provide fast, exclusive, personal transport.
They decided to totally rework the airframe. The first iteration was the Marketeer which was unpressurised. The ultimate was the Marksman which was pressurised and was basically, when On Mark had finished with it, a new aircraft.
Both types looked like Invaders, stripped of guns and warpaint, both sounded like Invaders and started life as such but the Marksman was so different it gained a supplementary type certificate.
Similarly today the BBJ has a seperate certificate as it is an amalgam of both the 737-700 and 737-800 and the A319CJ is also certificated differently to the A319. In contrast the earlier Boeing, Douglas, Airbus, BAC, DH etc. types used as executive jets were all certificated as airliners.