most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them
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OOOOOOH! Careful Genghis! You've raised that engineer/technician spectre again! I suspect that may be at the crux of this argument, although perhaps not articulated precisely. IMHO much of this debate comes down to the relative levels of training/ expertise/ cost/ qualification of people involved, and is, frankly, not best served by the peculiarly British trait of describing everyone involved in engineering as an 'engineer' regardless of training. If we had a continental system of accurately defining important technological roles without diminishing the status of anyone things would be a lot clearer (although we'd still never fit pilots in!). After all, individual roles in engineering are as broad as those in medicine, but we can define medical roles in categories such as surgeon, doctor, paramedic or nurse without demeaning anyone. Not sure if this makes any sense, but I've drank too many beers for this time of night - another engineer (or is it flight crew?) trait.
SkyGod
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From 41000 feet pilots look down at most folks, but especially engineers, technicians, mechanics or whatever the aero plane repair guys call them self these days.
Keep on biting guys. This is almost like last year when bus429 started a similar subject to wind up pilots. And we did bite.
Keep on biting guys. This is almost like last year when bus429 started a similar subject to wind up pilots. And we did bite.
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Towerpup,
what i believe you meant to say was aircraft or aeroplane, an aero plane being a device for reducing the dimensions of a bar of chocolate!
FDD was that the one with Ronnie Barker as
well?,top sketch.
what i believe you meant to say was aircraft or aeroplane, an aero plane being a device for reducing the dimensions of a bar of chocolate!
FDD was that the one with Ronnie Barker as
well?,top sketch.
SkyGod
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Rag:
No pup on this address, way up in the middle ages, more like a junk-yard dog.
You ground floor guys are bit strange, using aeroplanes to do what now, reduce the dimensions of choco late?
No pup on this address, way up in the middle ages, more like a junk-yard dog.
You ground floor guys are bit strange, using aeroplanes to do what now, reduce the dimensions of choco late?
Cunning Artificer
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Oh dear Ghengis, you have a dislike of beancounters? I am a beancounting technician who lords it over a bunch of guys doing Airline Engineering for a living - rather than Airliner Maintaining, which is a somewhat dirty affair, more suited to the lower forms of life.
Anyway, enough of the insults; after doing a bit of cost benefit analysis between my own education and training versus wages as compared to the median "self improver" I find that I'm much better off over a working life time, no matter how much our current pay checks may differ. (And I don't have to spend any time away from home either.) I don't get any respect from maintainers or flying machine operators, but I don't care as long as my hands remain clean and beautifully manicured, my wallet remains fat and my bank balance continues to embarrass the bank into offering my unemployed daughter a platinum credit card. Pilots higher up the pecking order than Maintenance Engineers? Certainly! But both jobs are mere "Manual Labour" well beneath the dignity of an Aviation Engineering Professional such as my good self.
Towerdog - I like your coarse fishing style, but I think I'll stick to flicking flies over the Tweed for now
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Anyway, enough of the insults; after doing a bit of cost benefit analysis between my own education and training versus wages as compared to the median "self improver" I find that I'm much better off over a working life time, no matter how much our current pay checks may differ. (And I don't have to spend any time away from home either.) I don't get any respect from maintainers or flying machine operators, but I don't care as long as my hands remain clean and beautifully manicured, my wallet remains fat and my bank balance continues to embarrass the bank into offering my unemployed daughter a platinum credit card. Pilots higher up the pecking order than Maintenance Engineers? Certainly! But both jobs are mere "Manual Labour" well beneath the dignity of an Aviation Engineering Professional such as my good self.
Towerdog - I like your coarse fishing style, but I think I'll stick to flicking flies over the Tweed for now
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Oh dear !,
another bleater who thinks they are Oscar Wilde incarnate !
"Flicking flies" indeed !,i would lay off the J.R Hartleys for breakfast if i were you !.
P.S.I would be'extra' careful if you do flick flies ,i do hope you use some form of protection.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: ragspanner ]
another bleater who thinks they are Oscar Wilde incarnate !
"Flicking flies" indeed !,i would lay off the J.R Hartleys for breakfast if i were you !.
P.S.I would be'extra' careful if you do flick flies ,i do hope you use some form of protection.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: ragspanner ]
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Rag, you know so much, there was indeed a Mr Barker in the sketch, which is why I can only look up to you?
Hear that "scruffy" is on his way out, better make sure he doesn,t do a postie.
Hear that "scruffy" is on his way out, better make sure he doesn,t do a postie.
Cunning Artificer
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Ah rags, you seem like a nice boy. Which school did you go to? I'm afraid I'm alliterate from taking Talisker for breakfast rather than Hartleys. Oops, there I go again - hic!
Oscar Wilde incarnate indeed! Wasn't he gay or something? I'm more of a Shelley man myself - Ozymandias and that sort of thing. Rebellious tendencies as some have said.
Returning to this argument about the relative positions of pilots and engineers/technicians/mechanics. Back in my Per Ardua days, my old Chiefy put it to a bumfluffy Flying Officer that we groundcrew must be smarter than the average pilot. After all, we strap them in and send them off to do all the fighting then spend the rest of the night drinking all their beer and screwing all their women.
Ghengis - I only did the beancounting course to see what all the fuss was about. Engineering is so much more fun!
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Oscar Wilde incarnate indeed! Wasn't he gay or something? I'm more of a Shelley man myself - Ozymandias and that sort of thing. Rebellious tendencies as some have said.
Returning to this argument about the relative positions of pilots and engineers/technicians/mechanics. Back in my Per Ardua days, my old Chiefy put it to a bumfluffy Flying Officer that we groundcrew must be smarter than the average pilot. After all, we strap them in and send them off to do all the fighting then spend the rest of the night drinking all their beer and screwing all their women.
Ghengis - I only did the beancounting course to see what all the fuss was about. Engineering is so much more fun!
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Through difficulties to the cinema
SkyGod
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Blacksheep:
Yeah mate, coarse fishing, but catch is good when bait is the ego
That being said, TowerDog wanted to become an aircraft mechanic in the military, but after having completed the mandatory IQ test for new recruits, he was turned down.
Went to civilian flight school later and ended up as a B-747 captain.
Yeah mate, coarse fishing, but catch is good when bait is the ego
That being said, TowerDog wanted to become an aircraft mechanic in the military, but after having completed the mandatory IQ test for new recruits, he was turned down.
Went to civilian flight school later and ended up as a B-747 captain.
Cunning Artificer
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Woof woof Towerdog! Must be nice to be at the top of two hierarchies eh? Now, if you'll just keep on breakin'em then we can carry on fixin'em and everything will be fine... 
BTW, the fishing's good. None of the flies have drowned yet anyway.
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BTW, the fishing's good. None of the flies have drowned yet anyway.
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When I originally entered the aviation profession I was selected to be a pilot.
Unfortunately, I failed in the initial stages when it was determined that my father was known and identified on my birth certificate.
There is no way I could accept the reduction in pay or status to join the ranks of flightcrew. I mean, as a super-hero, I could never live it down!
But again, let's face it, there has to be a position in society for blow-hard, self important, know-it all gits who like to wear fancy dress, and assume a position of superiority over the general populace - I believe we may have found it!
To quote from my days as a psychologist;
Whoops, hope this has no bad effects upon the original "special individual" who made thsi observation!
And after all that - I'm only joking, except for the miniscule minority of individuals who fit these description exactly! You probably don't know who you are, but we do!
Unfortunately, I failed in the initial stages when it was determined that my father was known and identified on my birth certificate.
There is no way I could accept the reduction in pay or status to join the ranks of flightcrew. I mean, as a super-hero, I could never live it down!
But again, let's face it, there has to be a position in society for blow-hard, self important, know-it all gits who like to wear fancy dress, and assume a position of superiority over the general populace - I believe we may have found it!
To quote from my days as a psychologist;
Exaggerated self-importance has various names - superiority complex, arrogance, vanity, conceit, egotism, and many others - and is based on "special person" misconceptions. The individual is constantly engaged in attempts to have others acknowledge his or her superiority, which if threatened, is defended vigorously. If the defence is unsuccessful, anxiety and depression result. The following six false beliefs are manifested by most:
I must control others.
I am superior to others.
I should not compromise.
I suffer from more frustrations than do others.
I must strive to be perfect.
Others cannot be trusted.
The special person's constant efforts to control, his attitudes of superiority, his refusal to compromise, his masked hostilities, and his empty perfectionism betray the highly competitive person who must have his own way and must be right at all costs. The failure to trust others is manifested by suspiciousness which may verge on the paranoid. Other characteristics of the "special person" are a highly critical attitude towards others, little empathy with others, lack of insight about the self, and self-righteousness.
Over-indulgence in childhood may be the cause, although other sources may include early identification with an illustrious or dominating parent or with fantasised heroes. Such people often become flawed leaders, who have problems with their families and intimates.
I must control others.
I am superior to others.
I should not compromise.
I suffer from more frustrations than do others.
I must strive to be perfect.
Others cannot be trusted.
The special person's constant efforts to control, his attitudes of superiority, his refusal to compromise, his masked hostilities, and his empty perfectionism betray the highly competitive person who must have his own way and must be right at all costs. The failure to trust others is manifested by suspiciousness which may verge on the paranoid. Other characteristics of the "special person" are a highly critical attitude towards others, little empathy with others, lack of insight about the self, and self-righteousness.
Over-indulgence in childhood may be the cause, although other sources may include early identification with an illustrious or dominating parent or with fantasised heroes. Such people often become flawed leaders, who have problems with their families and intimates.
And after all that - I'm only joking, except for the miniscule minority of individuals who fit these description exactly! You probably don't know who you are, but we do!
SkyGod
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Blacksheep:
Not on top of the woodpile anymore.
Scrubbing teakdecks on yachts these days.
From rags to riches and back to rags.
Uh, spanner you really wanted to fly did you not?
Don't be bitter chap, just go to flight school, get yer tickets and go look for a flying job. It's easy...
Not on top of the woodpile anymore.
Scrubbing teakdecks on yachts these days.
From rags to riches and back to rags.
Uh, spanner you really wanted to fly did you not?
Don't be bitter chap, just go to flight school, get yer tickets and go look for a flying job. It's easy...
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You still don't get my point do you?
How many engineers had their lunch served at their desk today? Not many I bet. Now how many pilots flying large commerical aircraft have and did thay pay for it?
No they didn't. They complain if they don't get a First Class meal.
The poor old engineer has to be happy with making his own tea, with teabags and milk he has bought AND has to que up AND PAY FOR for his lunch, which in my experience isn't fit for pigswill at some airports.
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: TDR ]
How many engineers had their lunch served at their desk today? Not many I bet. Now how many pilots flying large commerical aircraft have and did thay pay for it?
No they didn't. They complain if they don't get a First Class meal.
The poor old engineer has to be happy with making his own tea, with teabags and milk he has bought AND has to que up AND PAY FOR for his lunch, which in my experience isn't fit for pigswill at some airports.
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: TDR ]
Cunning Artificer
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Wasn't served exactly, I brought it in myself, but I do eat gourmet food prepared by my housekeeper, at my desk, off bone china service and using silver cutlery. The company frowns on the consumption of alcohol - at any time! but especially on company premises - so I have to make do with Vichy until I get home of an evening. Damned tough being a desk bound engineer. (Sorry, Technician cum part-time Beancounter.) Not like the good old days when I was down the Line, drinking cold tea out of plastic cups and ransacking the galleys for left-overs during transits. I seem to recall a bit of forelock tugging too, but that was often the only way to get cantankerous old four-ringers to ****** off skywards so we could shove off down the pub.
Roll on retirement when I can join old Towerdog, holy stoning the yacht's deck eh?
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Roll on retirement when I can join old Towerdog, holy stoning the yacht's deck eh?
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Through difficulties to the cinema
My company provides tea, coffee, milk and a kettle, all free and gratis. I bring my own tea in, because the stuff they buy is so awful.
I too eat at my desk, because there's too &*&( much work to do, and if I don't do it, nobody else will and I'll get the blame. So I work through lunch to improve the chances of occasionally seeing my family in daylight. Usually I fail anyway.
G
I too eat at my desk, because there's too &*&( much work to do, and if I don't do it, nobody else will and I'll get the blame. So I work through lunch to improve the chances of occasionally seeing my family in daylight. Usually I fail anyway.
G
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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I’d have a hard time casting my vote on this one; happened to see a blurb on TV about the Red Light district in BRU the other day. Got the impression the professionals behind the windows were doing much the same work we do, but getting paid a lot more money for it.
