Pilot training and experience
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Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Philadelphia (UK expat)
Pilot training and experience
I'm not a pilot, so I may be talking out of my rear end. But something struck me while reading through the thread about the AT 330 that was brought down safely in the Azores.
I think it was Guvnor who mentioned the the pilot's "bush" experience on DC6, implying that this would have helped him in this emergency, and questioning whether pilots that had been brought up on just the Airbus (or similar) would have had enough expertise to do the same job.
It strikes me that no amount of experience with "stick and rudder" on a DC6 is going to prepare you adequately for handling an A330 that's dead in the air. In fact, it may even work to your disadvantage because the handling characteristics would be so different. What I would have thought would be most significant is excellent and continuing training on type, even if that exact scenario isn't covered in the sims.
That's not to say that overall flying experience doesn't help - especially in the are of keeping cool and level-headed and making informed and sensible decisions in a crisis.
I'd be interested to know what other pilots think.
I think it was Guvnor who mentioned the the pilot's "bush" experience on DC6, implying that this would have helped him in this emergency, and questioning whether pilots that had been brought up on just the Airbus (or similar) would have had enough expertise to do the same job.
It strikes me that no amount of experience with "stick and rudder" on a DC6 is going to prepare you adequately for handling an A330 that's dead in the air. In fact, it may even work to your disadvantage because the handling characteristics would be so different. What I would have thought would be most significant is excellent and continuing training on type, even if that exact scenario isn't covered in the sims.
That's not to say that overall flying experience doesn't help - especially in the are of keeping cool and level-headed and making informed and sensible decisions in a crisis.
I'd be interested to know what other pilots think.
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Of course the handling characteristics would be different, but my experience of Canadian and African bush pilots is that they could fly a bath with wings and more importantly they have the grasp of the fundamentals of flying that people who have only flown for sizeable airlines (probably) don't have. Bear in mind that much of this experience has been gained from going through some very sticky situations and getting out of it in one piece.
As someone said in response to my views on this on the Airline pilots "lack skills to handle emergencies" thread, the sort of incidents we saw at Sioux City, Gimli and now Lajes don't happen that often. But they do happen - and some of the reponses on the now closed thread about the incident showed that airlines do not train for double engine flameouts.
Now, do you think that someone who had not been trained in what to do in the case of a situation such as this - and without the handling experience gained in somewhat more antique types - would in all probability have been able to achieve the same result as Capt Robert Piché - who has 20 years of bush piloting experience on DC6s - did on Friday?
As someone said in response to my views on this on the Airline pilots "lack skills to handle emergencies" thread, the sort of incidents we saw at Sioux City, Gimli and now Lajes don't happen that often. But they do happen - and some of the reponses on the now closed thread about the incident showed that airlines do not train for double engine flameouts.
Now, do you think that someone who had not been trained in what to do in the case of a situation such as this - and without the handling experience gained in somewhat more antique types - would in all probability have been able to achieve the same result as Capt Robert Piché - who has 20 years of bush piloting experience on DC6s - did on Friday?
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: AMS
Recently I've become an airline pilot, but I've flown helicopter in the navy for 10 years before I went "commercial".
What I'm really missing in airline flying is sim-time. In the navy I was in the sim each week (we were lucky to have our own "full-motion-180 degrees visual" sim on our airstation), compared to the twice a year in the sim right now. This results in lack of emergency training for the more inexperienced pilots.
In the navy we used to say that "flying" does not only mean handling the aircraft; flying is much more: it's something between your ears, a state of mind and a certain attitude.
So I agree with Guvnor: it,s not only the stick-time on type that matters, but also your experience in flying in general, especially when you're operating (or have operated) on the limits!! Because only then you understand the true meaning (and fun) of flying.
Cheers!!
Remember: every take off is a choice, every landing a must...
What I'm really missing in airline flying is sim-time. In the navy I was in the sim each week (we were lucky to have our own "full-motion-180 degrees visual" sim on our airstation), compared to the twice a year in the sim right now. This results in lack of emergency training for the more inexperienced pilots.
In the navy we used to say that "flying" does not only mean handling the aircraft; flying is much more: it's something between your ears, a state of mind and a certain attitude.
So I agree with Guvnor: it,s not only the stick-time on type that matters, but also your experience in flying in general, especially when you're operating (or have operated) on the limits!! Because only then you understand the true meaning (and fun) of flying.
Cheers!!
Remember: every take off is a choice, every landing a must...
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"...but my experience of Canadian and African bush pilots is that they could fly a bath with wings and more importantly they have the grasp of the fundamentals of flying that people who have only flown for sizeable airlines (probably) don't have."
I cant wait to see the poor eejits that fall for this one and reply to the statements made by the Guv. I will give him credit for being a persistant sod but how much more of his utter 'cow droppings' do we have to put up with on here? Next he will claim that his statements are based on research from somewhere, most likely his own, which like everything that comes from his hand is crooked in some way or another.
Covenant would do well to learn that even hinting at acknowledging anything the Guv writes is inviting him to burst forth with a veritable gutload of more verbal diarrhoea which will contain not one single nugget of anything useful and will only cause him to anger just about every airline pilot that reads this web page. The Guv is just a wannabee pilot groupie who is not liked by any of us 'Systems Monitors' who have never flown a DC6 (?!?) or a Beaver in the bush. We are just glorified bus drivers to the likes of this Walter Mitty character and the sooner his creditors get hold of him the better for the rest of us as long as they dont allow internet access from prison.
"Now, do you think that someone who had not been trained in what to do in the case of a situation such as this - and without the handling experience gained in somewhat more antique types - would in all probability have been able to achieve the same result as Capt Robert Piché - who has 20 years of bush piloting experience on DC6s - did on Friday?"
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From: LHR
Ozdude,
I don't usually agree with the tone of your postings or the 'Canberra school of diplomacy' but you have summed up the (so called) Guvnor very well.
For those who are less informed the 'Guvnor' is reportedly a deluded individual, a self styled (wannabe) airline executive who has allegedly duped many with false hopes of a cargo startup from PIK.
From his postings here and elsewhere it is evident he spends his days surfing airline sites for news and info to impress us with his knowledge.
He evidently very little commercial aviation experience and seeks to engratiate himself in the ranks professionals. He has remonstrated with little regard for the professional standards of mere 'machine minders' and unsurprisingly has no experience of flying himself.
You may draw your conclusions from his 'handle'.
The Guvnor is just another aircraft spotter
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Magplug ]
I don't usually agree with the tone of your postings or the 'Canberra school of diplomacy' but you have summed up the (so called) Guvnor very well.
For those who are less informed the 'Guvnor' is reportedly a deluded individual, a self styled (wannabe) airline executive who has allegedly duped many with false hopes of a cargo startup from PIK.
From his postings here and elsewhere it is evident he spends his days surfing airline sites for news and info to impress us with his knowledge.
He evidently very little commercial aviation experience and seeks to engratiate himself in the ranks professionals. He has remonstrated with little regard for the professional standards of mere 'machine minders' and unsurprisingly has no experience of flying himself.
You may draw your conclusions from his 'handle'.
The Guvnor is just another aircraft spotter
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Magplug ]
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Philadelphia (UK expat)
Well, I already know what the Guvnor thinks about this topic, and I already know what most of you think of the Guvnor .
I was hoping to get a few more responses, and maybe even start a debate, on the merits of on-type training versus overall flying experience.
Specifically, I would be interested to know whether people think that Capt. Piche's expert handling of the A330 can be attributed to his years of bush piloting, or whether it was a combination of just being a good instinctive pilot and having good training and experience on type.
As I said: I would have thought that knowledge of the glide characteristics of other aircraft would be of little help in such a situation, and may even be a disadvantage. Put it this way, no amount of deft handling of the controls is going to help you if you've miscalculated the rate of descent you can maintain under glide conditions. But then, I'm not a pilot, so what would I know?
Would any other pilots (i.e. not Guvnor, whose views I already know) care to comment?
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Covenant ]
.I was hoping to get a few more responses, and maybe even start a debate, on the merits of on-type training versus overall flying experience.
Specifically, I would be interested to know whether people think that Capt. Piche's expert handling of the A330 can be attributed to his years of bush piloting, or whether it was a combination of just being a good instinctive pilot and having good training and experience on type.
As I said: I would have thought that knowledge of the glide characteristics of other aircraft would be of little help in such a situation, and may even be a disadvantage. Put it this way, no amount of deft handling of the controls is going to help you if you've miscalculated the rate of descent you can maintain under glide conditions. But then, I'm not a pilot, so what would I know?
Would any other pilots (i.e. not Guvnor, whose views I already know) care to comment?
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Covenant ]
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Scotland
Agreements, to a certain extent, to both arguments here.
I agree the Guvnor is not really qualified to make such observations, however I don't think making such a personal character assasination towards him is called for. I too take his (many) postings with a pinch of salt but he's one of the 30,000 with a right to post on Pprune and we have to accept allcomers, even if they irritate us!
Returning to my original agreement, a bit of stick and rudder seat of the pants experience would definitely help in such a situation; if not skill-based but personality & confidence based. Put yourself in a gambling position as a passenger: given the choice of a 10,000 hr CAP509-origin pilot or that of the "flown just about everything" pilot, who would you rather have performing the task?
I agree the Guvnor is not really qualified to make such observations, however I don't think making such a personal character assasination towards him is called for. I too take his (many) postings with a pinch of salt but he's one of the 30,000 with a right to post on Pprune and we have to accept allcomers, even if they irritate us!
Returning to my original agreement, a bit of stick and rudder seat of the pants experience would definitely help in such a situation; if not skill-based but personality & confidence based. Put yourself in a gambling position as a passenger: given the choice of a 10,000 hr CAP509-origin pilot or that of the "flown just about everything" pilot, who would you rather have performing the task?
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Arrrghh!!!
Here we go again on this "bushpilots are polers", "airline pilots are button pushers" twaddle!
As a trainer I've seen many "I've flown everything" types who fail to come up to scratch. They may have flown loads of types but how well?
And yes, many airlines do practice dead stick landings in the sim, and pilots carry them out successfully.
The most important point in all this is how well trained and capable you are on your CURRENT type.
I speak from direct experience of training and checking crews, and can categorically guarantee that there is no correlation between previous bush flying or DC-6 experience and the ability to dead stick a modern airliner, other than the correlation between ANY pilot's level of experience, skill and training.
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Maximum ]
Here we go again on this "bushpilots are polers", "airline pilots are button pushers" twaddle!
As a trainer I've seen many "I've flown everything" types who fail to come up to scratch. They may have flown loads of types but how well?
And yes, many airlines do practice dead stick landings in the sim, and pilots carry them out successfully.
The most important point in all this is how well trained and capable you are on your CURRENT type.
I speak from direct experience of training and checking crews, and can categorically guarantee that there is no correlation between previous bush flying or DC-6 experience and the ability to dead stick a modern airliner, other than the correlation between ANY pilot's level of experience, skill and training.
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Maximum ]
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 874
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From: South East.
Its quite interesting to note that the gliding characteristics of a DC9-10 were very similar to those of a Hunter F.4/GA11 in a Flame Out situation. - even the gear/flap extn. speeds were almost the same.
The most significant was the similarity of the handling on short finals/flare.
Nice not to have to fly the '9 with the controls almost locked solid though!
Still, once again, in agreement with a lot of you guys, what are we talking about?
PRACTICE, innit!
The most significant was the similarity of the handling on short finals/flare.
Nice not to have to fly the '9 with the controls almost locked solid though!
Still, once again, in agreement with a lot of you guys, what are we talking about?
PRACTICE, innit!
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
I agree with the Guvnor.
Basic flying skills honed by years of flying "Bush" can be nothing but an asset in ANY type of airplane duing an emergency or even normal ops.
Basic flying skills honed by years of flying "Bush" can be nothing but an asset in ANY type of airplane duing an emergency or even normal ops.
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Oop North, UK
Just because the Govnr often speaks rot does not mean he is wrong ALL the time, I would say anyone who is used to handling an aircraft in non normal ailine flying will be better off, If you are happy with asessing the glide of a light aircraft and can adjust the glide angle happily with such manouvers as a sideslip (757 does it VERY nicely) you have GOT to have more of a chance than a same general ability pilot who is not used to these situations.
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From: Windhoek, Namibia
Being a so-called bush pilot operating single engined aircaft in Africa, I can not see that it gives one some magical extra experience, but it does theach you to be more aware of the machine and the enviorment you are flying in. Also being alone in the cockpit you have to learn and make and live by your choices, good or bad. The other advantage is going to all the wierdest and wonderfull runways and airports the world has to offer. Some of them is enought to make any pilot break out in a sweat at the mention of a name.
For any pilot I still belive pratice makes perfect and you never get to old to learn new tricks.
For any pilot I still belive pratice makes perfect and you never get to old to learn new tricks.
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Although I never thought I would say so, I must agree with the Guv.
I learned to fly in the Alaska bush. By luck alone I managed to stay alive for about 12,000 hours there. I also managed to stay alive in places where people were shooting at each other. Several of my colleagues were not so lucky. Now as a Check Captain on the 747 I have the opportunity to observe pilots from many backgrounds. Almost without fail I find that someone who has spent many years actually flying airplanes has very good hands. But having good hands is only part of being a good pilot. I find that ex-military pilots tend to be good commanders and managers. Pilots that have a lot of multi-crew time usually have good CRM skills. Pilots that have been to expensive aviation schools, like Embry Riddle, or UND, are balanced pilots. I have flown with test pilots from the US and Russia, they are smooth and smart. Commuter pilots can think on their feet, and fly a great ILS.
Bush pilots however, are meteorologists, baggage loaders, mechanics, sometimes test pilots, customer service reps, loadmasters, and hazardous materials experts. Bush pilots regularly operate in horrible weather, in ill-equipped aircraft, to places where there are no runways. Bush pilots take the dying and sick to the hospital when no one else can get there. Bush pilots get the food and medical supplies to people that may not live without them. In Alaska many small villages depend on the mail and food the Bush pilots brings.
Sitting in the comfortable cockpit of a modern jet is very nice, emergencies are rare. But if my family were on the airplane, and something bad were to happen, I would want a Bush pilot at the controls.
There are many people that may disagree, but they haven’t been there, have they?
I learned to fly in the Alaska bush. By luck alone I managed to stay alive for about 12,000 hours there. I also managed to stay alive in places where people were shooting at each other. Several of my colleagues were not so lucky. Now as a Check Captain on the 747 I have the opportunity to observe pilots from many backgrounds. Almost without fail I find that someone who has spent many years actually flying airplanes has very good hands. But having good hands is only part of being a good pilot. I find that ex-military pilots tend to be good commanders and managers. Pilots that have a lot of multi-crew time usually have good CRM skills. Pilots that have been to expensive aviation schools, like Embry Riddle, or UND, are balanced pilots. I have flown with test pilots from the US and Russia, they are smooth and smart. Commuter pilots can think on their feet, and fly a great ILS.
Bush pilots however, are meteorologists, baggage loaders, mechanics, sometimes test pilots, customer service reps, loadmasters, and hazardous materials experts. Bush pilots regularly operate in horrible weather, in ill-equipped aircraft, to places where there are no runways. Bush pilots take the dying and sick to the hospital when no one else can get there. Bush pilots get the food and medical supplies to people that may not live without them. In Alaska many small villages depend on the mail and food the Bush pilots brings.
Sitting in the comfortable cockpit of a modern jet is very nice, emergencies are rare. But if my family were on the airplane, and something bad were to happen, I would want a Bush pilot at the controls.
There are many people that may disagree, but they haven’t been there, have they?
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From: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Capt 210
A very gracious reply. I think your attitude is excellent in that it has the very essence of safe flying contained in it. You recognise others have something to teach you regardless of how good you are.
I am a turboprop training captain (soon to be an Airbus FO!), and I am therefore not as qualified as some of the big jet trainers contributing here. My own thoughts are that confidence in handling the aircraft is absolutely vital in dealing with the emergencies desbribed here. In my own job I train new pilots converting to type and I try and tailor training to individual's bacgrounds. For example if the guy has 2000 hours flying singles he is usually very good at handling, but is almost invariably very poor at systems handling. Similarly an ex-big jet Captain is usually great at the systems handling but may not have done a raw data ILS in anger for a long time and needs to do a bit of sharpening up on it. The bottom line is that you have to have a wide range of skills to be good at the job including general handling, system knowledge, avionics understanding and so forth. My own feeling is that it frankly boils down to the attitude of the individual pilot. Some guys/gals are happy just to be adequate. Others are in that constant pursuit of excellence - studying technical manuals, asking for advice from more experienced colleagues, studying SOPs again and again, researching past incidents on their type, constantly reviewing emergency procedures and drills etc etc. I do not think that this 'attitude' is necessarily related to individuals' particular background - it is something that some people have and others don't. I honestly believe that there can be no substitute for an inquisitive and professional outlook. That is the key to success when the day of the big race comes. (And a little bit of luck!!)
A very gracious reply. I think your attitude is excellent in that it has the very essence of safe flying contained in it. You recognise others have something to teach you regardless of how good you are.
I am a turboprop training captain (soon to be an Airbus FO!), and I am therefore not as qualified as some of the big jet trainers contributing here. My own thoughts are that confidence in handling the aircraft is absolutely vital in dealing with the emergencies desbribed here. In my own job I train new pilots converting to type and I try and tailor training to individual's bacgrounds. For example if the guy has 2000 hours flying singles he is usually very good at handling, but is almost invariably very poor at systems handling. Similarly an ex-big jet Captain is usually great at the systems handling but may not have done a raw data ILS in anger for a long time and needs to do a bit of sharpening up on it. The bottom line is that you have to have a wide range of skills to be good at the job including general handling, system knowledge, avionics understanding and so forth. My own feeling is that it frankly boils down to the attitude of the individual pilot. Some guys/gals are happy just to be adequate. Others are in that constant pursuit of excellence - studying technical manuals, asking for advice from more experienced colleagues, studying SOPs again and again, researching past incidents on their type, constantly reviewing emergency procedures and drills etc etc. I do not think that this 'attitude' is necessarily related to individuals' particular background - it is something that some people have and others don't. I honestly believe that there can be no substitute for an inquisitive and professional outlook. That is the key to success when the day of the big race comes. (And a little bit of luck!!)
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Capt. Fletcher
Sorry, I tend to get a bit worked up about the bush pilot thing. Perhaps I've been defending myself and my brothers too long. In most flying circles here in the USA bush pilots are frequently thought of as the odd duck who couldn't get a real job. I find them to be some of the best people I have ever met.
I know I was shot down at several major airline interviews partly because of my background.
Sorry, I tend to get a bit worked up about the bush pilot thing. Perhaps I've been defending myself and my brothers too long. In most flying circles here in the USA bush pilots are frequently thought of as the odd duck who couldn't get a real job. I find them to be some of the best people I have ever met.
I know I was shot down at several major airline interviews partly because of my background.
