Single engine over London
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Single engine over London
Don't get me wrong, I think it was a fine gesture, but how did they get round the rules for the Spitfire fly-past at Westminster Abbey?
I believe the whole of London (including rivers) is treated as a 'congested area' for the 1500' and alight clear rules.
'because it was military?
'because CAA said OK?
Can anyone tell me?
I believe the whole of London (including rivers) is treated as a 'congested area' for the 1500' and alight clear rules.
'because it was military?
'because CAA said OK?
Can anyone tell me?
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Having said that, I have seen light singles at low altitude over Greenwich/Blackheath several times, usually during the Saturday lunchtime/Sunday lunchtime slot when City is closed and the City Zone reverts to class G.
Not everyone seems to keep the alight clear rule....
Not everyone seems to keep the alight clear rule....
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Mark 1, correct up to a point. London is a congested area for FW as was proved some years ago at the trial of someone who tried it on and claimed he could pull off a forced landing safely in Hyde Park. Oh NO! said Mr CAA, thats land used for public recreation and so not allowable, its a Congested area!
He should have known better as it was not an area of 1000ft radius/diameter (chose which definition you please as the CAA seem to do, but steadfastly refuse to define) less than 50% "Congested", though if Hyde Park is "Congested" compared to the rest of London then my c*ck is a kipper.
Even so single engined helicopters can operate over the Thames from Greenwich to Kew, as well as over Richmond Park, Twickenham and Hampton Courtand other urban areas all of which are as "Congested" as Hyde Park with official sanction.
Figure that out if you can.
He should have known better as it was not an area of 1000ft radius/diameter (chose which definition you please as the CAA seem to do, but steadfastly refuse to define) less than 50% "Congested", though if Hyde Park is "Congested" compared to the rest of London then my c*ck is a kipper.
Even so single engined helicopters can operate over the Thames from Greenwich to Kew, as well as over Richmond Park, Twickenham and Hampton Courtand other urban areas all of which are as "Congested" as Hyde Park with official sanction.
Figure that out if you can.
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Foghorn
No problems - give Thames Radar (132.7) a call and 99% of the time they'll let you transit their zone VFR from Thames Barrier to Lea Valley (providing, of course, that they have the time to deal with you). Don't go further West than the transit instructions though, prepare to orbit if anything is on the ILS to LCY or remain clear and route down to Dartford Bridge if requested. The folks at Thames Radar are great - as well as all the professional traffic they deal with they do an excellent job of getting poor PPL's like me vectored onto the localiser at Biggin as well! Well worth talking to them as on a clear day the views from 2300ft qnh are fantastic and with proper clearance you'll be breaking no rules.
I doubt we'd get the OK to take a C152 over Westminster but I agree with Mark 1 that Sunday was a proper gesture.
No problems - give Thames Radar (132.7) a call and 99% of the time they'll let you transit their zone VFR from Thames Barrier to Lea Valley (providing, of course, that they have the time to deal with you). Don't go further West than the transit instructions though, prepare to orbit if anything is on the ILS to LCY or remain clear and route down to Dartford Bridge if requested. The folks at Thames Radar are great - as well as all the professional traffic they deal with they do an excellent job of getting poor PPL's like me vectored onto the localiser at Biggin as well! Well worth talking to them as on a clear day the views from 2300ft qnh are fantastic and with proper clearance you'll be breaking no rules.
I doubt we'd get the OK to take a C152 over Westminster but I agree with Mark 1 that Sunday was a proper gesture.
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Oi R5,
Don't go encouraging people to call Thames Radar to transit the LCY Control Zone. The airport is geeting so busy that zone transits will become the exception rather than the rule. If the workload is high or the primary service to IFR traffic to EGKB and EGLC is compromised, I am not even to consider issuing a zone clearance. Just because it sounds quiet on the frequency doesn't mean that we are quiet. That amount of telephone co-ordination that goes on is phenomenal - four phone calls for each IFR outbound movement from each airport for a start.
Don't go encouraging people to call Thames Radar to transit the LCY Control Zone. The airport is geeting so busy that zone transits will become the exception rather than the rule. If the workload is high or the primary service to IFR traffic to EGKB and EGLC is compromised, I am not even to consider issuing a zone clearance. Just because it sounds quiet on the frequency doesn't mean that we are quiet. That amount of telephone co-ordination that goes on is phenomenal - four phone calls for each IFR outbound movement from each airport for a start.
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Hi Mark One,
The flight was subject to a Non Standard Flight authorisation in the London Control Zone, which allows for aircraft to be exempt from certain Rules of the Air if the reason for the flight can be justified. Each application is judged on its merits. The Airspace Utilisation Section probably were also involved in this one.
The flight was subject to a Non Standard Flight authorisation in the London Control Zone, which allows for aircraft to be exempt from certain Rules of the Air if the reason for the flight can be justified. Each application is judged on its merits. The Airspace Utilisation Section probably were also involved in this one.
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Thanks ATCO 2,
'Just a bit curious as to the workings of these things. 'Having seen the paper work (and cost) involved in organising a flour bombing competition, its interesting to know the inside info on how they did this.
....'don't suppose theres any chance of a Jodel formation flypast?
Mk.1
'Just a bit curious as to the workings of these things. 'Having seen the paper work (and cost) involved in organising a flour bombing competition, its interesting to know the inside info on how they did this.
....'don't suppose theres any chance of a Jodel formation flypast?
Mk.1
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This thread has, as ever, drifted off subject a bit. I suspect that the Spitfires in the flyby were military and thus not subject to "congested area" rules a la CAA. Simply put, different rules for different rulebooks. Fair enough.
I am a bit more concerned about the discussions of singles flying over Greenwich and Blackheath, as foxmoth said it aint legal just cos Thames said OK.
The legal definition of "congested area" appears to include everything except open farmland and countryside. (can someone with an ANO provide the full definition please?) It certainly includes such "open land" as golf courses, parks, commons, playing fields (occupied or not) etc, and probably could be construed to include the River Thames itself. As Pinger said, if Hyde park is not open land then neither is any other patch of grass surrounded by houses...the "island of open land" does not exist within the metropolis.
A light aircraft flying VFR over Greenwich at it's max alt of, what, 2400'? would need a pretty stunning glide performance to "alight clear" somewhere close to the M25 in order to comply strictly with the above. Now it is clear that the CAA do not chose to apply this to the letter at present, but woe betide the poor sod who has cause to land on Wansted Flats or Greenwich Park, he risks fielding a very heavy book, if you get the drift. And on recent form he'll drop it, heavily.
It could be you!
I am a bit more concerned about the discussions of singles flying over Greenwich and Blackheath, as foxmoth said it aint legal just cos Thames said OK.
The legal definition of "congested area" appears to include everything except open farmland and countryside. (can someone with an ANO provide the full definition please?) It certainly includes such "open land" as golf courses, parks, commons, playing fields (occupied or not) etc, and probably could be construed to include the River Thames itself. As Pinger said, if Hyde park is not open land then neither is any other patch of grass surrounded by houses...the "island of open land" does not exist within the metropolis.
A light aircraft flying VFR over Greenwich at it's max alt of, what, 2400'? would need a pretty stunning glide performance to "alight clear" somewhere close to the M25 in order to comply strictly with the above. Now it is clear that the CAA do not chose to apply this to the letter at present, but woe betide the poor sod who has cause to land on Wansted Flats or Greenwich Park, he risks fielding a very heavy book, if you get the drift. And on recent form he'll drop it, heavily.
It could be you!
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Agree strongly, just because you have been ATC cleared does not mean that the rules of the air are suspended. It is up to the PIC to keep to these rules even if under Radar Vectors (maybe the ATCO has a responsibility if under vectors - ATCO2?). It'll be your arse and not the ATCO's that gets kicked if the CAA catch you.
I'm Biggin based and have often heard light singles asking Thames for clearance into the City Zone to do sightseeing or to transit(been talking about this and other things with ATCO2 over in the ATC forum). Unless I'm wrong, the whole area is congested, and as as has been said before, the alight-clear rule cannot be met by a light single over Greenwich at 2,400ft.
I'm Biggin based and have often heard light singles asking Thames for clearance into the City Zone to do sightseeing or to transit(been talking about this and other things with ATCO2 over in the ATC forum). Unless I'm wrong, the whole area is congested, and as as has been said before, the alight-clear rule cannot be met by a light single over Greenwich at 2,400ft.
