not making money

[brs planespotter]

if it is considered that an a/c is not making money whilse its sat on the ramp how come the "big boys" ie b747,767a330 etc of say ba and the major carriers at lhr can be sat there for up too 5hrs?is it physically impossible too turn them around in say 1 and a half hrs and back i the air?if the pax have already paid how can the plane be maaking money anyway?i am a bit lost on this!many thanks brs planespotter

[HZ123]

You are correct average turnaround at LHR is 4 hours plus. Other conditions govern usage as well e.g. time of arrival / departures from LHR or to LHR. Pax are not happy leaving home on a longhaul flight in the early hours. Likewise ex UK pax do not wish to travel longhaul at 07;00 hours. Then consideration is given to arrival times and turaround at the destinations.

Your other point is indeed that at this time many airlines and the aircraft are not making money as the yields / ASK (actual seat cost per kilometer) are not high enough to make profits (desired). At BA I know we have parked up 3 or 4 747's at CWL and maybe one is parked but rotated week about at LHR. Finally BA intends to reduce the summer programme by at least 2% and reduce the Club Europe numbers by seat change plan. Hope this has answered a couple of your points.

Finally in the long term I expect you will see twin engined aircraft (777 / 787 / 350 / 330 ) replace many of the 747 / 340 aircraft which will be grounded to save cost the only exception the 380.

[SNS3Guppy]

Airplanes can't be turned indefinitely. During a turnaround, fuel is uploaded, catering adjusted and stocked, and crews often swap, with flight planning and other duties involved. Airplanes are mechanical, and break. Servicing is done as required, and turnarounds may take more than an hour and a half.

Turnarounds are scheduled to take longer in many cases, and aircraft may sit overnight. It's not practical to try to schedule everything in the airline to always meet connections to make hour or hour and a half turns. One aircraft gets delayed, it causes a ripple effect that makes everyone miss their connections and turns. Accordingly, having down time throughout the system, delays in meeting aircraft, etc...is all part of doing business.

It's not just about getting the airplane moving with paying passengers on board.

[Rainboe]

Planespotter, you appear to have a deep interest in the mechanics of scheduling ev erything from parking spots to aeroplane schedules. Here is another facet. Imagine 2 clocks, one set for, say LHR, and another set for ultimate destination, say SYD, next to it. The hour and minute hands are connected for their different local times. So you rule out departing LHR between night curfew 23.30 and early morning opening time 0630, and see what times that rules out arriving in SYD for the transit time betweeen the two. Then you rule out arriving SYD between night curfew and early morning opening time 0600. This obviously rules out leaving LHR between certain times too. Then you have to take into consideration the requirements at stops downroute on the way. Then, once you have arrived in SYD, you don't then want to be caught by a curfew once you've arrived for several hours (to allow for delays on the way out) otherwise a few delays on the way out may mean you have to overnight the aeroplane at SYD. If you now look at your diary for the green bands on your clocks when you can reasonably schedule a service, and at a time when people would like to travel (do 400 people want to leave for Australia at 0800 having to overnight in overpriced hotels?), then those green bands actually look rather small during the day! So you schedule the flight to leave LHR to arrive when morning curfew is lifted. now you have to look at what aeroplane to use. You can have your eye on an early morning arrival from MIA or ORD. Not a 2 hour turnaround- it may well be late which will mess up the rest of the plan. Usually these long turnarounds are to soak up delays, allow engineers to do maintenance and checks, cleaners to give a thorough clean, maps and charts to be changed, nav system databases to be updated, flight recorder data to be accessed, security sweeps, cabin repairs and restocking, tyres changed- it's never ending. The aim of the game is to produce a prepared aeroplane on time, without allowing a delay in to cause rolling delays

[mutt]

We want our passengers to arrive in LHR /JFK/CDG in the early morning so that they can get connections, but its too early to schedule a return departure as it would mean passengers cant connect in to meet the flight. Therefore we end up with 6-10 hour turnarounds...

Mutt

[boeing boeing.. gone]

I know airlines are changed for landings are they also charged for the amount of time they spend on the ground???

[AircraftOperations]

Landing Fees, Parking Fees, Handling Fees plus charged passenger fees.

Apart from the pax fees (per head of departing and arriving pax), fees are usually based on MTOW for aircraft types.

Don't forget other ramp fees such as de-icing which would be based on how much was used.

[Doors to Automatic]

BRS Planespotter

Short haul aircraft will generally be on the ground from 2200 to 0700 every night so if a long-haul aircraft is flying through the night it is ok for it to have a 4-5 hour stop when it reaches its destination.

[brs planespotter]

scheduling

thanks guys,your responses have made it a lot clearer,my motto is if you dont know ask!thanks again

[Rainboe]

One does have respect for the Ground Services departments, it is a very complicated job! Remembering stands which have u/s ground electrics (no u/s APU A/C to be parked), no wide bodies, u/s jetties, difficult taxi routes to stand, narrow stands, long term parking stands, getting buses to arrivals etc, ensuring stands are free for arrivalsl. It is very complex, and company radio frequencies can be berserk, and airports are always under resourced, so it's always juggling with more balls than you can handle!