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Yes, the effort that "The Few" put in was quite extraordinary. Yes, a lot of innocent civilians were killed on all sides, as were a lot of combatants, many of whom, during the Battle of Britain, were extremely gifted aviators, and our profession is the poorer for not now having the benefit of their teaching.
It is, perhaps, worth recording that Britain did not win the Battle of Britain - Hitler lost it. The best German move was the switch (inspired by Goering, a former fighter ace himself - he took over command of the "Flying Circus" after Baron von Richthofen's death - and an able tactician) from attacking convoys in the channel to hitting RAF bases in the southeast (and further afield). The German Admiralty had refused to contemplate an invasion until they had total air superiority.
Later on, the further switch to bombing London instead of airfields allowed the RAF fighter squadrons to regroup and recuperate. Had they not, however, had the fortitude to survive until that point, there would have been nothing to regroup.
It is also worth pointing out that neither the Hurricane nor the Mosquito had Government orders placed when they were developed. Hawker and de Havilland respectively had more imagination and intelligence than all Their Airships put together. Later on, when people said "Thank God for the Hurricane", what they really meant was "Thanks God for Tommy Sopwith". Moral of the story is never to trust politicians.
It is, perhaps, worth recording that Britain did not win the Battle of Britain - Hitler lost it. The best German move was the switch (inspired by Goering, a former fighter ace himself - he took over command of the "Flying Circus" after Baron von Richthofen's death - and an able tactician) from attacking convoys in the channel to hitting RAF bases in the southeast (and further afield). The German Admiralty had refused to contemplate an invasion until they had total air superiority.
Later on, the further switch to bombing London instead of airfields allowed the RAF fighter squadrons to regroup and recuperate. Had they not, however, had the fortitude to survive until that point, there would have been nothing to regroup.
It is also worth pointing out that neither the Hurricane nor the Mosquito had Government orders placed when they were developed. Hawker and de Havilland respectively had more imagination and intelligence than all Their Airships put together. Later on, when people said "Thank God for the Hurricane", what they really meant was "Thanks God for Tommy Sopwith". Moral of the story is never to trust politicians.
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ID90;
That is truly a great wed site. I recommend that everbody looks at it. Believe it or not there was a newpaper article in the local paper in Oklahoma City, were I live, about the wed site ("The Daily Oklahoman").
To ALL the brave young men and women.
That is truly a great wed site. I recommend that everbody looks at it. Believe it or not there was a newpaper article in the local paper in Oklahoma City, were I live, about the wed site ("The Daily Oklahoman").
To ALL the brave young men and women.
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AeroBoero, ZZZ. Less of the "English" please. This was battle fought not only by us but also by fleeing pilots from Europe and other Empire nations. A full list scrolls at the end of the film. But for a short list, remember also those who fought when it was not even their country at risk:
American
Australian
Belgian
Canadian
Czech
Free French
Irish
Jamaican
New Zealand
Palestinian
Polish
South Africa
Southern Rhodesian
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 11 August 2000).]
American
Australian
Belgian
Canadian
Czech
Free French
Irish
Jamaican
New Zealand
Palestinian
Polish
South Africa
Southern Rhodesian
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 11 August 2000).]
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ORAC ;
Well , you forgot the Brazilians then.They also had nothing at stake and fought too.On the ground and flying P-47 in Italy.
I'm not forgetting all the other nationalities who fought in the WWII. But it would make a BIG list to cite all and I'm sure everyone here knows who fought and gave their lives in the field. Flying or Not.
[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 11 August 2000).]
Well , you forgot the Brazilians then.They also had nothing at stake and fought too.On the ground and flying P-47 in Italy.
I'm not forgetting all the other nationalities who fought in the WWII. But it would make a BIG list to cite all and I'm sure everyone here knows who fought and gave their lives in the field. Flying or Not.
[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 11 August 2000).]
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PP - True, but for how much longer will the BoB Flight remain operational? A much more lasting memorial is the plinth - which the Lottery Fund people refused to contribute a penny for. 
ORAC - you forgot to include Trinidad & Tobago on the list. There's a fascinating military museum here that documents each and every one of the Trinis that flew for the RAF in all sorts of roles - from flying Spits and Hurricanes in the BoB to Mosquitoes in the Pathfinders.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
ORAC - you forgot to include Trinidad & Tobago on the list. There's a fascinating military museum here that documents each and every one of the Trinis that flew for the RAF in all sorts of roles - from flying Spits and Hurricanes in the BoB to Mosquitoes in the Pathfinders.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
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My apologies for the omissions. I deliberately said it was not inclusive. It was taken from the BoB list I have. I apologise for any omissions either in the BoB and later. Please feel free to add. If anyone wonders on names/ranks etc, I am sure I, or others, can provide the details or the sites to go to.
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That means that the aircraft will be more than 110 years old by the time they are finally grounded!!
You wouldn't know where I can get a similar life extension programme for some L1011s, by any chance??
Seriously, that's fantastic news and it is great to hear that my children will be able to hear the unmistakeable growl of a Rolls Royce Merlin.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
You wouldn't know where I can get a similar life extension programme for some L1011s, by any chance??
Seriously, that's fantastic news and it is great to hear that my children will be able to hear the unmistakeable growl of a Rolls Royce Merlin.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
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You all made some excellent points! It is impossible for me to imagine flying a Hurricane, single-pilot four-engine Lancaster, not to mention an Me-110 with a flaming-engine prop which won't feather, against responsive fighters with machine guns and high-velocity, exploding cannon shells...
Charly's and HugMonster's remarks were certainly thought-provoking. Just to continue: after enjoying Prag, my wife and I were in Meissen (very nice, alte, gemutliche Stadt) last Sept and visited the Dresden Museums, just a short train ride up the Elbe River. We had just seen a tv program the night before our trip, describing how terrible it was for the civilians in Dresden, which contained thousands of war refugees from the east, who were attacked three times in one night, in order to wipe out the "Florenz on the Elbe".
How sad it is to see cemeteries with thousands of Allied troops in Europe, and in contrast, to enjoy a bike path between small Central European villages (i.e. Baden), and suddenly finding memorials to numerous men in two different wars. Small villages in the peaceful countryside, where many fathers, husbands, brothers, especially sons never returned. It is bad enough without imagining the wives, mothers...
Somewhere, there must be memorials to the civilians killed, also. I have just one youngster, a son, who I am crazy about. Whether he ever becomes interested in aviation, time will tell. I pray that he will never be needed in a uniform, except as a volunteer.
May we all question political leaders whose careers benefit by creating armed conflict, often quite indifferent as to whether they sacrifice my family, or yours.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 August 2000).]
Charly's and HugMonster's remarks were certainly thought-provoking. Just to continue: after enjoying Prag, my wife and I were in Meissen (very nice, alte, gemutliche Stadt) last Sept and visited the Dresden Museums, just a short train ride up the Elbe River. We had just seen a tv program the night before our trip, describing how terrible it was for the civilians in Dresden, which contained thousands of war refugees from the east, who were attacked three times in one night, in order to wipe out the "Florenz on the Elbe".
How sad it is to see cemeteries with thousands of Allied troops in Europe, and in contrast, to enjoy a bike path between small Central European villages (i.e. Baden), and suddenly finding memorials to numerous men in two different wars. Small villages in the peaceful countryside, where many fathers, husbands, brothers, especially sons never returned. It is bad enough without imagining the wives, mothers...
Somewhere, there must be memorials to the civilians killed, also. I have just one youngster, a son, who I am crazy about. Whether he ever becomes interested in aviation, time will tell. I pray that he will never be needed in a uniform, except as a volunteer.
May we all question political leaders whose careers benefit by creating armed conflict, often quite indifferent as to whether they sacrifice my family, or yours.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 August 2000).]
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Very true, Ignition Override.
Indeed, it would be a very nice gesture of reconcilliation between our two great European nations if the propose BoB memorial included the names of all the casualties, on both sides.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
Indeed, it would be a very nice gesture of reconcilliation between our two great European nations if the propose BoB memorial included the names of all the casualties, on both sides.
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Happiness is a warm L1011
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Re The Guvnor's suggestion, my recollection is that the Scottish National War Memorial at Edinburgh Castle already does list units, if not individual names, participating from both sides in the references to major engagements, with the exception of Japan in World War II. I suppose that exception is for fairly obvious reasons, if anyone remembers that time.
On the other hand, in the matter of seeing bravery where we find it, the same museum contains a samurai sword taken from a Japanese artillery officer at, again going by memory, the battle of the Irrawady. His battery was attacked and overrun by British tanks. He counter-attacked a tank with his sword, killing the commander and one crewman before being shot with a revolver from a third man inside. I think any unit would be proud to number him on its roll.
On the other hand, in the matter of seeing bravery where we find it, the same museum contains a samurai sword taken from a Japanese artillery officer at, again going by memory, the battle of the Irrawady. His battery was attacked and overrun by British tanks. He counter-attacked a tank with his sword, killing the commander and one crewman before being shot with a revolver from a third man inside. I think any unit would be proud to number him on its roll.
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I dont know about the rest of you chaps,but I reckon I could probably do a ciruit in a Hurricane or a Spitfire,elegant it would not be,but I suggest we could all probally do it.
There the dreaming and realism end for me,since your opponent is now unseen,experienced from Spain already in the art of killing,and he is daring and often fearless in the pursuit of his quarry...you and your mates.
I for one would need a large supply of Y-fronts,for not only were the guys inexperienced in aerial combat,they were defending a small island in broad daylight against a very formidable and undefeated foe that had steam rolled its way to 22 miles from Calais.
Take a look on a clear day on a departure from southern UK,and at 10-20,000 ft just see how close the Huns were.
Sterling stuff indeed,their finest hour it was,bloody marvellous really.
There the dreaming and realism end for me,since your opponent is now unseen,experienced from Spain already in the art of killing,and he is daring and often fearless in the pursuit of his quarry...you and your mates.
I for one would need a large supply of Y-fronts,for not only were the guys inexperienced in aerial combat,they were defending a small island in broad daylight against a very formidable and undefeated foe that had steam rolled its way to 22 miles from Calais.
Take a look on a clear day on a departure from southern UK,and at 10-20,000 ft just see how close the Huns were.
Sterling stuff indeed,their finest hour it was,bloody marvellous really.
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Mind if I join in?...Just wanted to add a few things to this (response laden) topic. I agree with all that we in the UK (as well as the rest of the world) should never forget the sacrifices made, for our life today. But the future of rememberance rests with the likes of my little who asked, last week, what was the Battle of Britain dad? His experiences are limited to having grown up in the former USSR, but of his (limited experiences) he can tell me why they have a 'Victory Day' in Russia, maybe this public holiday should be instituted here, for some its a day of reflection, for some thanks for a day away from the grind..but they all know why.
Secondly, I was in Gallipoli for ANZAC day a couple of years ago, and its is here that a big Turkish Colonel said something along the lines of '....what happened before is past, they are all brothers under the soil now'. Maybe that's something else we could learn, it should be at the very least a European rememberance. (although my Grandmother would disagree since she lost her brother at Monte Cassino).
Finally (thank god they say), I rememeber reading somewher that Winnie didn't come up wih the 'never in the field of human conflict...' bit, and that it was King Leonidas of Sparta, some 2000 years before..can anyone confirm this?
Be Lucky
Neil
Secondly, I was in Gallipoli for ANZAC day a couple of years ago, and its is here that a big Turkish Colonel said something along the lines of '....what happened before is past, they are all brothers under the soil now'. Maybe that's something else we could learn, it should be at the very least a European rememberance. (although my Grandmother would disagree since she lost her brother at Monte Cassino).
Finally (thank god they say), I rememeber reading somewher that Winnie didn't come up wih the 'never in the field of human conflict...' bit, and that it was King Leonidas of Sparta, some 2000 years before..can anyone confirm this?
Be Lucky
Neil
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IFR, it was great to find out that the BoBMF will be going for another 50 years. The USAF B-52's will still be in service as well! Imagine flying a plane in service that your grandfather flew.
Good points earlier regarding the Bomber Command losses. My dad was an F/E on Halifaxes 1944-45 and lost a lot of friends.
On a slightly different tack, could the invasion have taken place even with air superiority? The invasion fleet predominantly consisted of towed river barges. The Home Fleet may have taken terrible losses, but 3 or 4 capital ships ploughing through that lot would have sent thousands of soldiers to the bottom of the channel without having to fire their guns. Throw in a few cruisers and destroyers as well and it would have been chaos. Remember, the German navy at that point was not large whereas ours was in the top 3 in terms of size. Compare the German fleet with the Allied fleet of 1944, specialist amphibious craft, landing craft for troops and amoured vehicles and more capital ships than you could shake a stick at. Plus their rear areas had been pounded by medium and heavy bombers in the day before 6th June. Admittedly, the Allies were going against a much more heavily fortified coast that the Germans would have had to attack but there is still one hell of a discrepancy in levels of preparation and equipment. This is not meant to decry the efforts of the RAF pilots of all nationalities who daily gave more than anybody should ever have to. I am just wondering how critical to Britain's ultimate survival the Battle really was.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
Good points earlier regarding the Bomber Command losses. My dad was an F/E on Halifaxes 1944-45 and lost a lot of friends.
On a slightly different tack, could the invasion have taken place even with air superiority? The invasion fleet predominantly consisted of towed river barges. The Home Fleet may have taken terrible losses, but 3 or 4 capital ships ploughing through that lot would have sent thousands of soldiers to the bottom of the channel without having to fire their guns. Throw in a few cruisers and destroyers as well and it would have been chaos. Remember, the German navy at that point was not large whereas ours was in the top 3 in terms of size. Compare the German fleet with the Allied fleet of 1944, specialist amphibious craft, landing craft for troops and amoured vehicles and more capital ships than you could shake a stick at. Plus their rear areas had been pounded by medium and heavy bombers in the day before 6th June. Admittedly, the Allies were going against a much more heavily fortified coast that the Germans would have had to attack but there is still one hell of a discrepancy in levels of preparation and equipment. This is not meant to decry the efforts of the RAF pilots of all nationalities who daily gave more than anybody should ever have to. I am just wondering how critical to Britain's ultimate survival the Battle really was.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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What would have happened if Britain (or the rest of the world as a matter of fact...) had lost the war. Say everybody had surrended and now what?
- zillions of people not dead?
- might have to speak German now?
- all this money not spent?
- no heroes?
Remember, fire needs three elements, war only two...
- zillions of people not dead?
- might have to speak German now?
- all this money not spent?
- no heroes?
Remember, fire needs three elements, war only two...
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"Remember him?
He was no Galahad, no knight sans peur et sans reproche.
Sans Peur? Fear was the second enemy to beat. He was a common, unconsidered man, who for a moment of eternity held the whole future of mankind in his two sweating palms
And did not let go.
Remember him, not as he is portrayed, but as he was. To him you owe most of what you have and love today"
AIr Chief Marshall Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris 1990
......says it all really
Thank you,whoever you are
He was no Galahad, no knight sans peur et sans reproche.
Sans Peur? Fear was the second enemy to beat. He was a common, unconsidered man, who for a moment of eternity held the whole future of mankind in his two sweating palms
And did not let go.
Remember him, not as he is portrayed, but as he was. To him you owe most of what you have and love today"
AIr Chief Marshall Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris 1990
......says it all really
Thank you,whoever you are
Glasgow's Gallus Gigolo .... PPRuNeing is like making love to a beautiful woman ... I take hours.
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I can recommend "Sky Spy", by Ray Holmes. He was on the 2 part ITV programme about the Battle in August, talking about the day he chased 3 Dorniers over London, shooting down 2 and ramming the third. I liked the line about "if you wih to travel incognito by bus, do not carry a six foot long metal propellor blade with bullet holes in it."
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Yo Rommel,
If you think you could fly a Spitfire or a Hurricane, I'd love to see you try! I take up any number of pilots, and non pilots, flying in Tiger Moths, most weekends and I have yet to see a pilot who didn't train on old aeroplanes show the vaguest ability to fly a Tiger Moth, let alone a Spitfire.
Most guys 'n' gals who trained on Cessnas/Pipers et al don't have a clue.
That said, I am told by various members of my club who fly these things, that if you can fly a Tiger moth, even half-competently, then you can sure as hell fly a Spitfire. I'd love the chance to find out.
If you think you could fly a Spitfire or a Hurricane, I'd love to see you try! I take up any number of pilots, and non pilots, flying in Tiger Moths, most weekends and I have yet to see a pilot who didn't train on old aeroplanes show the vaguest ability to fly a Tiger Moth, let alone a Spitfire.
Most guys 'n' gals who trained on Cessnas/Pipers et al don't have a clue.
That said, I am told by various members of my club who fly these things, that if you can fly a Tiger moth, even half-competently, then you can sure as hell fly a Spitfire. I'd love the chance to find out.