Hijackers - what else SHOULD we do? Suggestions invited.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
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Hijackers - what else SHOULD we do? Suggestions invited.
To say that the World Trade Centre, and Pentagon kamikaze attacks, and the Pennsylvania crash (speculated at this time to also have been a hijacking) were any worse than other cases, is highlighted by the fact that these were MULTIPLE incidents in a specific time frame.
The value of the domestic passenger jet as a tool for delivering death, maiming, and extreme personal and public financial damage, has been realized in the most horrendous way.
So what can be done to try to prevent these cowards from achieving their goal, if/when this happens again. My two bob's worth is to suggest:
(a) A plainclothes, armed officer present on EVERY flight, seated in the front 4 or 5 rows. It would be important that NONE of the crew, and perhaps check-in staff knew his id nor seat number, and that the same seat not be allocated each time. Singapore Airlines already occasionally employs this technique.
(b) The cockpit be equipped with repellant gas cannister(s), or "stun gun".
Over the top? Look at these latest cowardly hijackings, and realize that this will certainly give other fanatics a goal to try to equal.
Suggestions please?
The value of the domestic passenger jet as a tool for delivering death, maiming, and extreme personal and public financial damage, has been realized in the most horrendous way.
So what can be done to try to prevent these cowards from achieving their goal, if/when this happens again. My two bob's worth is to suggest:
(a) A plainclothes, armed officer present on EVERY flight, seated in the front 4 or 5 rows. It would be important that NONE of the crew, and perhaps check-in staff knew his id nor seat number, and that the same seat not be allocated each time. Singapore Airlines already occasionally employs this technique.
(b) The cockpit be equipped with repellant gas cannister(s), or "stun gun".
Over the top? Look at these latest cowardly hijackings, and realize that this will certainly give other fanatics a goal to try to equal.
Suggestions please?
Union Goon
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I can't believe that it comes to thinking like this but, how does one deter one willing to die?
The only thing that I can think of is to attack the families of those that carry out this sort of attack. That is not something that the western governments can do, but the Soviets did that sort of thing when they arrested the whole family...
Though the bomber is gonna get 70 virgins, the thought of the rest of his family at the minimum spending life in Jail, and preferably dieing would be a better deterrent. Alas it is most likely something we could never implement.
I think the Isreali's probably have it right, kill any terrorist whereever you find them.
Wino
The only thing that I can think of is to attack the families of those that carry out this sort of attack. That is not something that the western governments can do, but the Soviets did that sort of thing when they arrested the whole family...
Though the bomber is gonna get 70 virgins, the thought of the rest of his family at the minimum spending life in Jail, and preferably dieing would be a better deterrent. Alas it is most likely something we could never implement.
I think the Isreali's probably have it right, kill any terrorist whereever you find them.
Wino
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Why not arm the cockpit crews. Over 60% of the crews are ex-military and we're use to carrying weapons. Sure beats sitting on your hands while someone breaks down the cockpit door! 
Trash du Blanc
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I used to work at KATL, and ramp workers would get hired, work for 2 weeks until their background checks came back, then get fired because they were convicted felons who lied about it on their applications. (One enterprising soul drove a tug off airport and tried to pawn it!)
As long as security/ramp service/ catering/ cleaning is a minimum wage job, you gets what you pays for. Security should not be determined by the free market!
As long as security/ramp service/ catering/ cleaning is a minimum wage job, you gets what you pays for. Security should not be determined by the free market!
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I'm in favour of arming the crews and carrying plainclothesmen. The terrorists don't care if they die, but knowing they'll die before they get the chance to harm anyone else will probably put a stop to them. The prospect of failure is far more discouraging to the terrorist than the prospect of death.
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Apparently there were groups of 4-5 on each aircraft armed with nothing more than knives (at least on the one which crashed near Pittsburgh). Faced with men who trained for this sort of operation and our day to day lower level of security, I honestly doubt whether there is anything you can do to prevent this type of act.
Whatever you do deter terrorists acts, groups like these will train to exploit the weak points. We can try and reduce the number of these, starting with carry-on baggage for one, but there will always be a risk.
Their weapons may have been nothing more than plastic knives or spikes. Even these could probably be hidden by professional terrorists. They will always have the element of surprise and therefore the upper hand.
Depressing I know but I'm trying to be realistic.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: knackered ]
Whatever you do deter terrorists acts, groups like these will train to exploit the weak points. We can try and reduce the number of these, starting with carry-on baggage for one, but there will always be a risk.
Their weapons may have been nothing more than plastic knives or spikes. Even these could probably be hidden by professional terrorists. They will always have the element of surprise and therefore the upper hand.
Depressing I know but I'm trying to be realistic.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: knackered ]
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They could make a computer lockout code to lock all access to All controls while the plane continues on the FMC programmed flight path. One that is randomly generated before every flight. The codes are kept by someone on the ground. In case of hijacking, pressing a special set of keys on the CDU or a special button would engage the lock. There should be a procedure drawn up to retrieve the code in case of false warnings. I suppose, on the new fly by wire planes, it should just be a matter of changing the software.
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Listening to talk back radio here in Australia it is clearly apparent that the average man is calling for vengeance. I personally hope it comes in a form that the rest of the world will never forget. Not a solution I know but I certainly hope it happens.
KIFIS
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My company issued a directive last night that ALL M.E. pax are banned from traveling with us for 7 days, as a protective measure for US offices in SGN and HAN wether a threat here is perceived as real, vague, crystal-balled or imagined. Good. Saves me throwing them off myself.
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What happened to the axe located behind the Capts seat ?
Wouldnt really want to have weapons in the cockpit though - the pilot sitting next to you might be an islamic zealot.
Wouldnt really want to have weapons in the cockpit though - the pilot sitting next to you might be an islamic zealot.
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Well a simple and effective start would be to totally shut down whatever country hosted the perps of this one.
No aircraft flys in or out of there.
No Passport holder of that country gets on an aircraft for ever more. If they want to travel - buy a bike or walk.
It will be hard on the large proportion of innocents in that country - but when they offer up all the
terrorists - and they know who they are - then maybe, just maybe, they get a reprieve.
No exceptions, no excuses - effective this day. Easy to do - all it takes is a little willpower.
Perhaps the airlines could even take a lead on this one. It would be a timely and popular move.
MG
Edited for pathetic spelling and undue (if justified) emotion.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: MasterGreen ]
No aircraft flys in or out of there.
No Passport holder of that country gets on an aircraft for ever more. If they want to travel - buy a bike or walk.
It will be hard on the large proportion of innocents in that country - but when they offer up all the
terrorists - and they know who they are - then maybe, just maybe, they get a reprieve.
No exceptions, no excuses - effective this day. Easy to do - all it takes is a little willpower.
Perhaps the airlines could even take a lead on this one. It would be a timely and popular move.
MG
Edited for pathetic spelling and undue (if justified) emotion.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: MasterGreen ]
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The people who sell gasolene in the US have already taken the opportunity to gouge the motorist by raising the price of gas over 100%. Companies that would take advantage of a disaster like this should be treated as terrorists.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: bunyip ]
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: bunyip ]
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If and when they catch and put on trial the persons responsible for this atrocity, they should only have a public defender, as do most Americans who are on trial. Famous and notorious lawyers, who take advantage of situations like this to make money or impress the ignorant, should not be allowed to represent these cowards.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
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bunyip, my belief is that Americans and the rest of the world's citizens who come from rational thinking, democratic, non-fanatical type countries are expecting IMMEDIATE JUSTICE by the US intelligence and military, once the perpetrators and their supporters have been identified!
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We have all decried the poor standard of security staff, and have, correctly in my opinion, put that down to the low wage paid to them. You pay peanuts, etc.
Maybe this incident would have not taken the path it did if the security staff had been better trained. Maybe.
So long as security is treated as a joke, we are liable to this sort of terror.
Maybe this incident would have not taken the path it did if the security staff had been better trained. Maybe.
So long as security is treated as a joke, we are liable to this sort of terror.
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Interesting question. Here's an excerpt from email I sent to friends:
It's 1:19 am Wed for me. Halifax is bedding down thousands of passengers from Europe. I'm still in shock. I'm wondering why the second two planes weren't shot down as soon as authorities realized kamakazi suicide attacks were the plan. I guess it surprised everyone, but still, aren't certain air force commanders supposed to consider ALL airspace threats? Don't hijacked planes usually get free jet fighter escorts? Why don't the journalists on tv ask this question?
I checked the Professional Pilots Rumour Network on the Web. There were some thoughts there. One I liked: Maybe we should just seal the cockpits off from the cabin. Access through the outside of the fuselage only.
Another idea: secret agents on every flight - no one knows which seat.
My idea: Lets put some difficult-to-destroy (or find) cameras in the flight cabins and broadcast their signals to recorders on the ground. Surely we could do that now at a reasonable cost. At least we could then see how many hijackers it takes, how they behave and how the passengers behave.
_________
later thoughts...
It seems many are crying for vengeance on Afganistahn. Well, if America does it, lets hope it's not in the faceless cowardly way that their leaders criticize - from the sky that is. The Afgan people are victims of their government, just as much as were Cambodians under Pol Pot. If the US will take this oportunity to liberate them, smiting the terrorist camps etc. along the way, then go to it. Otherwise, pray for our souls if we simply bomb them as we did Iraq.
It's 1:19 am Wed for me. Halifax is bedding down thousands of passengers from Europe. I'm still in shock. I'm wondering why the second two planes weren't shot down as soon as authorities realized kamakazi suicide attacks were the plan. I guess it surprised everyone, but still, aren't certain air force commanders supposed to consider ALL airspace threats? Don't hijacked planes usually get free jet fighter escorts? Why don't the journalists on tv ask this question?
I checked the Professional Pilots Rumour Network on the Web. There were some thoughts there. One I liked: Maybe we should just seal the cockpits off from the cabin. Access through the outside of the fuselage only.
Another idea: secret agents on every flight - no one knows which seat.
My idea: Lets put some difficult-to-destroy (or find) cameras in the flight cabins and broadcast their signals to recorders on the ground. Surely we could do that now at a reasonable cost. At least we could then see how many hijackers it takes, how they behave and how the passengers behave.
_________
later thoughts...
It seems many are crying for vengeance on Afganistahn. Well, if America does it, lets hope it's not in the faceless cowardly way that their leaders criticize - from the sky that is. The Afgan people are victims of their government, just as much as were Cambodians under Pol Pot. If the US will take this oportunity to liberate them, smiting the terrorist camps etc. along the way, then go to it. Otherwise, pray for our souls if we simply bomb them as we did Iraq.
Union Goon
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It would not matter how good security was.
Every weapon brought on those 4 aircraft were 100 percent legal. A knife shorter than 4 inches was untill today perfectly legal.
Cockpit access needs to be completely seperate from the main cabin. The pilots of cockpit were coerced into opening the door by the murder of the flight attendants. It is telling that they had to lure the pilots out of the cockpit. As much as we like deride the cockpit door as being able to be kicked in, that is not exactly true. It can be Kicked OUT, but not IN on an FAA door. The European doors were a different animal however...
Wino
Every weapon brought on those 4 aircraft were 100 percent legal. A knife shorter than 4 inches was untill today perfectly legal.
Cockpit access needs to be completely seperate from the main cabin. The pilots of cockpit were coerced into opening the door by the murder of the flight attendants. It is telling that they had to lure the pilots out of the cockpit. As much as we like deride the cockpit door as being able to be kicked in, that is not exactly true. It can be Kicked OUT, but not IN on an FAA door. The European doors were a different animal however...
Wino
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I know this will be a major inconvenience, especially to business travelers, but how about banning carry-on bags (except for medicine, inhalers, and other medical equipment). This should also reduce boarding delays. Banning knives of all sizes is a good first step.
Also, security and screening prior to boarding needs to be updated. Identifying these people before boarding is critical. Once they are onboard, the crew is already
at a major disadvantage
Also, security and screening prior to boarding needs to be updated. Identifying these people before boarding is critical. Once they are onboard, the crew is already
at a major disadvantage
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Controlling hijackers is a problem with onion-like layers. Although the possibility of a disaster like the WTC takeovers has long been a danger that risk analysts could forsee, the financial and political motivation to put teeth behind its prevention have been lacking. The DB Cooper model of 'benign' hijacking seems to have prevailed. Now we clearly perceive a broader and deeper threat that requires more powerful counter layers.
At the top level, Control Access - to the aircraft, to weapons, especially to the cockpit. The classic formula.
In the middle levels, Limit Ability of pax to take control of the cabin - via shotgun guards, mace, karate-trained stews, thin air, lighting, etc.
At the next level, Limit Ability of any hijacker in control of the cabin to enter the cockpit - with physical barriers, crew weapons, and other kinds of gotchas.
At the final level, Eliminate the possibility of completing the hijacking mission - at least the WTC/Pentagon style and preferably most others types - by auto limiting control / course/ range/ speed options when authorized crew not at controls, by including automated squawk functions when specific crew members absent or inop, and maybe for FBW aircraft something along the lines of a deadman's control that limits power in hijack case as soon as aircraft is within x-range of a suitable airport, perhaps triggered by combination of inop crew and ground signals or chase plane telemetry.
Desperate measures, but more benign and therefore more likely to be invoked than shooting a wayward airliner out of the sky. All the above - and more - relatively cheap with contemporary technology - somewhat analogous to an ejection seat - powerful stuff, not for casual use.
The ultimate objective is to convince methodical would-be hijackers, before the fact, that they cannot successfully achieve targeted kamikazee style mission objectives.
At the top level, Control Access - to the aircraft, to weapons, especially to the cockpit. The classic formula.
In the middle levels, Limit Ability of pax to take control of the cabin - via shotgun guards, mace, karate-trained stews, thin air, lighting, etc.
At the next level, Limit Ability of any hijacker in control of the cabin to enter the cockpit - with physical barriers, crew weapons, and other kinds of gotchas.
At the final level, Eliminate the possibility of completing the hijacking mission - at least the WTC/Pentagon style and preferably most others types - by auto limiting control / course/ range/ speed options when authorized crew not at controls, by including automated squawk functions when specific crew members absent or inop, and maybe for FBW aircraft something along the lines of a deadman's control that limits power in hijack case as soon as aircraft is within x-range of a suitable airport, perhaps triggered by combination of inop crew and ground signals or chase plane telemetry.
Desperate measures, but more benign and therefore more likely to be invoked than shooting a wayward airliner out of the sky. All the above - and more - relatively cheap with contemporary technology - somewhat analogous to an ejection seat - powerful stuff, not for casual use.
The ultimate objective is to convince methodical would-be hijackers, before the fact, that they cannot successfully achieve targeted kamikazee style mission objectives.
The Original Whirly
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The following thoughts may be over-optimistic and unrealistic, but here goes.
Up till now hijackers have been assumed to be relatively benign. Pilots have been told to cooperate with them (am I right about this?) and people have expected to just be inconvenienced by going to some other airport.
That will never happen again after this. So passengers and crew will be prepared to take risks to overcome hijackers. And surely a plane load of people can overcome a few with knives, if they're desperate enough.
Hijackers will realise this, so it won't be worth trying. Hijacking won't be easy, as it has been up till now.
So, could this spell the end of hijacking?
Like I said, probably unrealistic, but makes sense to me all the same.
Up till now hijackers have been assumed to be relatively benign. Pilots have been told to cooperate with them (am I right about this?) and people have expected to just be inconvenienced by going to some other airport.
That will never happen again after this. So passengers and crew will be prepared to take risks to overcome hijackers. And surely a plane load of people can overcome a few with knives, if they're desperate enough.
Hijackers will realise this, so it won't be worth trying. Hijacking won't be easy, as it has been up till now.
So, could this spell the end of hijacking?
Like I said, probably unrealistic, but makes sense to me all the same.