How much needs to be cleared during de-icing?
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How much needs to be cleared during de-icing?
I was on a CO 777 leaving EWR on Friday after a big snowstorm in NYC.
We sat for deicing before takeoff but even after the wings had been cleared and sprayed I would still see visible pieces of ice on the wings both towards the tip and also near to the place - some on the leading edge of the flar and the rest on the flat upper surface of the wing
There was about 4ft in total - a relatively thin layer overall.
I brought it to the attention of one of the FAs who simply told me that the Ice would melt before takeoff and that deicing "takes a while".
Of course the ice remained there until the roll and I suppose at some point it must have been blown off the wing.
Was I right to have been concerned? It was only a small amount of ice but would this get worse during a flight? Was I over-reacting and coming across as a prat or was it useful to bring it to attention.
I could see why someone who is de-icing planes all day long may get bored and rush a little.
We sat for deicing before takeoff but even after the wings had been cleared and sprayed I would still see visible pieces of ice on the wings both towards the tip and also near to the place - some on the leading edge of the flar and the rest on the flat upper surface of the wing
There was about 4ft in total - a relatively thin layer overall.
I brought it to the attention of one of the FAs who simply told me that the Ice would melt before takeoff and that deicing "takes a while".
Of course the ice remained there until the roll and I suppose at some point it must have been blown off the wing.
Was I right to have been concerned? It was only a small amount of ice but would this get worse during a flight? Was I over-reacting and coming across as a prat or was it useful to bring it to attention.
I could see why someone who is de-icing planes all day long may get bored and rush a little.
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Well, CO are a Part 121 operator, so the relevant regulation would be:
Now, the reply given by the FA was dubious (if it hasn't melted off due to the fluid application, it won't during the taxi, especially if the temperature is sub-freezing anyway) but the PIC can to some extent "hide behind" that word "adhering" and argue that it would have (did?) blown off.
Nevertheless, I'd consider the "clean wing" principle to have been violated, the de-icing crew certainly didn't do their job if there was ice left visible from the cabin (and there seems little doubt of that, since the FA reply corroborates your observation), and there certainly are aircraft types where leaving even small amounts of ice after de-icing is a risky situation. IMHO you were certainly right to draw it to the crew's attention, and I think the FA should at least have informed the flight deck; it's not the FA's role to assess upper surface condition, and the legal responsibility is on the PIC. If something had happened there would be words written, I'm sure, about improving CRM between cabin crew and flight deck.
§ 121.629 Operation in icing conditions.
(b) No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator.
(b) No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator.
Nevertheless, I'd consider the "clean wing" principle to have been violated, the de-icing crew certainly didn't do their job if there was ice left visible from the cabin (and there seems little doubt of that, since the FA reply corroborates your observation), and there certainly are aircraft types where leaving even small amounts of ice after de-icing is a risky situation. IMHO you were certainly right to draw it to the crew's attention, and I think the FA should at least have informed the flight deck; it's not the FA's role to assess upper surface condition, and the legal responsibility is on the PIC. If something had happened there would be words written, I'm sure, about improving CRM between cabin crew and flight deck.
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Well i brought it to the attentional of two flight attendants... the first (female) simply dismissed it... and the second (male) looked as though he was going to the front of the cabin to say something to someone.
However, i felt silly for bringing it to their attention... i suppose in this field there is a lot taken on trust that the deicing people will do their jobs. It would be good for the pilot to come and check the wing visibly would it not?
Anyhow, i assume the ice must have blown off eventually because it was not there when it was finally light out.
However, i felt silly for bringing it to their attention... i suppose in this field there is a lot taken on trust that the deicing people will do their jobs. It would be good for the pilot to come and check the wing visibly would it not?
Anyhow, i assume the ice must have blown off eventually because it was not there when it was finally light out.
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Johnny - despite what you may read on here, 'Captains', including 'senior crew' don't ALWAYS get things right. This obviously comes as a shock to some. You were, in my opinion, right to ask the crew and that was the right thing to do. I don't know if the 777 has any 'black lines' on the wing 'near the tip' incidentally.
The problem is, as has been discussed before, how many queries from passengers are acceptable? Most of us do, however, try to encourage the use of all resources to improve aviation safety, and since the pilots cannot see the areas you talk about I think it was worth raising the query.
So, to give you a reasoned answer
Was I right to have been concerned? Yes
It was only a small amount of ice but would this get worse during a flight? No
Was I over-reacting and coming across as a prat or was it useful to bring it to attention. On balance no, no and yes.
Had there been ice, it would, sadly, not be the first aircraft in aviation history to take off with ice where it should not be. If it was a small amount of ice, although it would represent an incomplete de-icing process by the de-icers (or a further accumulation after de-ice) and may well be have been in breach of regulations as MFS said, it would be unlikely to cause any significant problems for the flight - as you describe it. There was, of course, nothing to stop the crew 'coming back to check' if it was visible to you, and of course they may have done.
........ and good on you for asking here.
The problem is, as has been discussed before, how many queries from passengers are acceptable? Most of us do, however, try to encourage the use of all resources to improve aviation safety, and since the pilots cannot see the areas you talk about I think it was worth raising the query.
So, to give you a reasoned answer
Was I right to have been concerned? Yes
It was only a small amount of ice but would this get worse during a flight? No
Was I over-reacting and coming across as a prat or was it useful to bring it to attention. On balance no, no and yes.
Had there been ice, it would, sadly, not be the first aircraft in aviation history to take off with ice where it should not be. If it was a small amount of ice, although it would represent an incomplete de-icing process by the de-icers (or a further accumulation after de-ice) and may well be have been in breach of regulations as MFS said, it would be unlikely to cause any significant problems for the flight - as you describe it. There was, of course, nothing to stop the crew 'coming back to check' if it was visible to you, and of course they may have done.
........ and good on you for asking here.
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I agree totally.
If anyone sees something that concerns them, they have every right to bring it to the cabin crew's attention, and woe betide a cabin crew member who on being told, dismisses something without either looking for themselves, and either explaining it to the pax if they've seen it before and know, or telling the crew up front if they haven't.
Aviation safety belongs to us all. Flight crew, cabin crew and passengers, engineers, loaders and fuellers too. Everyone plays their part.
Raising your hand if something is wrong is the first step to breaking the chain of events that make headlines. How many lives would still be with us now, if errors and faults that were spotted in time, actually got to the flight crew's attention in time?
Senior crew may have loads of experience, but all of us make mistakes, or even might be in a position where the mistake is made without our knowledge. You can relax and ignore these things only when Crystal Balls are issued to flight crew.....the accountants have vetoed them this year again.
If anyone sees something that concerns them, they have every right to bring it to the cabin crew's attention, and woe betide a cabin crew member who on being told, dismisses something without either looking for themselves, and either explaining it to the pax if they've seen it before and know, or telling the crew up front if they haven't.
Aviation safety belongs to us all. Flight crew, cabin crew and passengers, engineers, loaders and fuellers too. Everyone plays their part.
Raising your hand if something is wrong is the first step to breaking the chain of events that make headlines. How many lives would still be with us now, if errors and faults that were spotted in time, actually got to the flight crew's attention in time?
Senior crew may have loads of experience, but all of us make mistakes, or even might be in a position where the mistake is made without our knowledge. You can relax and ignore these things only when Crystal Balls are issued to flight crew.....the accountants have vetoed them this year again.
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We had a passenger (frequent traveller) a while back, who, on disembarking, described a 'funny noise' during the approach - a sort of intermittent, whining mechanical noise. Nothing seen or heard on the flight deck.
To cut a long story short, a couple of sectors later, one of the hydraulic pumps failed in flight. No big drama, as the aircraft has plenty of redundancy, but it was very useful to have had an initial 'heads up' from the back that something wasn't quite right.
I'd certainly want someone to speak up if they saw or heard something wrong. There's a world of difference between being told how to do your job and being helped to do your job, and I wouldn't dismiss the opinion of everyone in the back simply because they don't have an ATPL.
Who knows, if a few more passengers had spoken out about cracked fuselages or ice-covered 737s and F28s, more people might still be with us . . .
To cut a long story short, a couple of sectors later, one of the hydraulic pumps failed in flight. No big drama, as the aircraft has plenty of redundancy, but it was very useful to have had an initial 'heads up' from the back that something wasn't quite right.
I'd certainly want someone to speak up if they saw or heard something wrong. There's a world of difference between being told how to do your job and being helped to do your job, and I wouldn't dismiss the opinion of everyone in the back simply because they don't have an ATPL.
Who knows, if a few more passengers had spoken out about cracked fuselages or ice-covered 737s and F28s, more people might still be with us . . .
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About 20 years ago a Paramount Airways MD83 took off from LGW after some unseasonal March snow. In spite of having de-iced earlier, it still had slush on the top of its wings when cleared for take-off. Several of the passengers noticed this; no one said anything to the CC. At rotation the slush slid back straight into the engines. In spite of significant blade damage, the aircraft struggled into the air and eventually made an emergency landing at Filton. It was a pretty close thing, as was demonstrated by a fatal MD83 accident in almost identical circumstances in Sweden a few years later.
Maybe if just one of those passengers had raised his/her hand?
Maybe if just one of those passengers had raised his/her hand?
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Rainboe it is perfectly acceptable and indeed required to check the wing before departure if it is suspected/reported that there may be contamination.
It is accepted that the wing may be inspected from a cabin window by a qualified crewmember uner reasonable lighting so I dont know where you are coming from with your statement above.
An extract from de-icing requirements regarding Pre-flight contamination checks:
Pre Take-Off Contamination Inspections (PCI)
A Pre-Takeoff Contamination Inspection (PCI) is a pre-flight inspection of the critical surfaces carried out by a qualified person to determine if they are free of contamination, immediately prior to takeoff.
This inspection is optional anytime prior to take-off however it becomes mandatory when the minimum holdover time has elapsed and a take-off is contemplated. A PCI is required under all conditions exceeding moderate snow or when no Holdover Guidelines exist. Take-off must be
initiated within 5 minutes of the inspection or the inspection must be repeated or the aircraft returned for de-icing.
This check must be carried out from a vantage point and under lighting conditions that permit an accurate assessment of the existence or non-existence of contamination on the wings and leading edges. The inspection can be conducted from inside the aircraft through an overwing window or
from outside the aircraft. The use of wing lights, overwing emergency exit lights or a flashlight may be required to accurately determine if the wings are clean. If the wings and leading edges are clearly visible and suitable for take-off, they are a representative surface in determining that the other critical
surfaces that were deiced/anti-iced are also suitable for take-off.
It is accepted that the wing may be inspected from a cabin window by a qualified crewmember uner reasonable lighting so I dont know where you are coming from with your statement above.
An extract from de-icing requirements regarding Pre-flight contamination checks:
Pre Take-Off Contamination Inspections (PCI)
A Pre-Takeoff Contamination Inspection (PCI) is a pre-flight inspection of the critical surfaces carried out by a qualified person to determine if they are free of contamination, immediately prior to takeoff.
This inspection is optional anytime prior to take-off however it becomes mandatory when the minimum holdover time has elapsed and a take-off is contemplated. A PCI is required under all conditions exceeding moderate snow or when no Holdover Guidelines exist. Take-off must be
initiated within 5 minutes of the inspection or the inspection must be repeated or the aircraft returned for de-icing.
This check must be carried out from a vantage point and under lighting conditions that permit an accurate assessment of the existence or non-existence of contamination on the wings and leading edges. The inspection can be conducted from inside the aircraft through an overwing window or
from outside the aircraft. The use of wing lights, overwing emergency exit lights or a flashlight may be required to accurately determine if the wings are clean. If the wings and leading edges are clearly visible and suitable for take-off, they are a representative surface in determining that the other critical
surfaces that were deiced/anti-iced are also suitable for take-off.
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And at the subsequent accident enquiry it was asked if the Pilots had completed a PCI as required, the response was, as you have eloquently pointed out, nah....too difficult. 
