Full Motion Experiences-Why do they cost so much?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Southend (SEN/EGMC)
Full Motion Experiences-Why do they cost so much?
Hey all,
I was just wondering, why do full-motion simulator experiences cost so much?
Is it because they cost millions and therefore cost alot to go because of the insurance, leasing, etc....????
or is it due to the huge amounts of power they use?
kind regards,
aviatordom
I was just wondering, why do full-motion simulator experiences cost so much?
Is it because they cost millions and therefore cost alot to go because of the insurance, leasing, etc....????
or is it due to the huge amounts of power they use?
kind regards,
aviatordom
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
From: West Yorkshire Zone
Something that I have always not understood.
It seems totally silly that you can have a flying lesson for 130 ph and fly the 'real' thing in the 'real' environment.
Obviously you can't go and hire a 757 just as easy, But some of the prices BA charge are astronomical
To be honest I think the demand for simulators will fall, As you can get adequate software for your own pc.
Obviously not as detailed in the layout etc, But alot cheaper than say 500 ph.
Whooever designed the simulators must have made a packet.
It seems totally silly that you can have a flying lesson for 130 ph and fly the 'real' thing in the 'real' environment.
Obviously you can't go and hire a 757 just as easy, But some of the prices BA charge are astronomical
To be honest I think the demand for simulators will fall, As you can get adequate software for your own pc.
Obviously not as detailed in the layout etc, But alot cheaper than say 500 ph.
Whooever designed the simulators must have made a packet.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,447
Likes: 310
From: various places .....
(a) FFS is cheaper to run than the aircraft by a significant amount
(b) some exercises done in the simulator are too hazardous to consider doing routinely on the aircraft
(c) for training, the aircraft doesn't have the freeze and reposition facility which makes the simulator such a productive training tool
(d) the aircraft is better off doing what it does best .. moving pax and freight and making money .. not training
(e) PC simulation has its place for introductory basic and routine continuation work .. and offers a very useful tool for that purpose .. eg IFR procedural work and systems training. However, the real cockpit of a simulator provides the link between what the PC can do .. and the aircraft
(f) provided the stick control forces are realistic, the value of full motion is nice to have but could be done without for routine training activities. However, full hydraulics has the average pilot nearly convinced that he/she is in the aircraft .. the standard comment after an endorsement is that the aircraft is a bit easier to fly .. and that the visuals are a bit more realistic ...
(b) some exercises done in the simulator are too hazardous to consider doing routinely on the aircraft
(c) for training, the aircraft doesn't have the freeze and reposition facility which makes the simulator such a productive training tool
(d) the aircraft is better off doing what it does best .. moving pax and freight and making money .. not training
(e) PC simulation has its place for introductory basic and routine continuation work .. and offers a very useful tool for that purpose .. eg IFR procedural work and systems training. However, the real cockpit of a simulator provides the link between what the PC can do .. and the aircraft
(f) provided the stick control forces are realistic, the value of full motion is nice to have but could be done without for routine training activities. However, full hydraulics has the average pilot nearly convinced that he/she is in the aircraft .. the standard comment after an endorsement is that the aircraft is a bit easier to fly .. and that the visuals are a bit more realistic ...
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
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From: ME
To be honest I think the demand for simulators will fall, As you can get adequate software for your own pc
Our latest flight crew training device based on PC technology cost close to $2m and thats without motion or visuals.
Mutt
N4790P
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,558
Likes: 233
From: Asia
aviatordom,
It is also worth noting that the parts and data packs supplied by the airframe manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers are not cheap. Around US$3M for a typical Boeing/Airbus but up to US$8M for the B787 per simulator.
It is also worth noting that the parts and data packs supplied by the airframe manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers are not cheap. Around US$3M for a typical Boeing/Airbus but up to US$8M for the B787 per simulator.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 978
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From: West Yorkshire Zone
The only forseeable problem is what happens when they are no 737-200's flying or The L1011 etc - Who is going to buy a simulator for an aircraft that is retired.??
A collector, But maybe not at a good asking price??
If the 'sim' was worth say 2m, Obviously the purchase price is only going to be in the thousands??
And the space available to house it.
A collector, But maybe not at a good asking price??
If the 'sim' was worth say 2m, Obviously the purchase price is only going to be in the thousands??
And the space available to house it.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 149
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From: Burgess Hill
Do the Sums
Most Full Flight Simulators go on training for up to 25 years -perhaps doing as much as 6,000 hours/year ( just visited a 20 year old A320 in Beijing doing just that) - now if you're selling sim time at say £400/hour thats - £2.5M /year in revenue (OK its not profit ) -for 25 years thats over £50M in training income - OK it won't fetch £400/hour as time goes on and the type moves to service in 3rd world countries - but most long term sim owners get there initial outlay back within 10 years - the difficulty most owners face is gapping the sim training time long enough to carry out essential maintenance or updating the simulated aircraft config - the really good devices have very few hours available/day often < 4 hours typically.
..and if they don't make that time available then reliability and out of date configuration will impact how much they can charge for their devices.
..and if they don't make that time available then reliability and out of date configuration will impact how much they can charge for their devices.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 638
Likes: 18
From: South Oxfordshire
I've been wrestling with the "Have a go or not" question for a while now. I would dearly love to spend an hour in a full motion sim, but could spend my (sparse) cash on a few more hours actually flying.....
On the other hand, I'll never get to fly a real A320 (etc), so maybe it'll be worth it just once....but on the other hand I love real flying....AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!
On the other hand, I'll never get to fly a real A320 (etc), so maybe it'll be worth it just once....but on the other hand I love real flying....AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 725
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From: Australia
The airlines are renting out their sims to enthusiasts?
How times have changed. In 1992 our flying school had a couple of Air Force pilots that rented lighties for fun, one invited me to ride jumpseat in his P-3C sim session. Exercise complete with 10 minutes to spare, so invited to sit in the right seat and try the HK checkerboard approach! Did ok so they said, try again, fly through the checkerboard! In 1999 I was shown through the Ansett simulator centre in Melbourne as a visitor by a training captain, friend of a family friend, who generously arranged 20min 'flying' the B767 simulator.
Both awesome experiences, but told me one thing - I might only have been a PA38 Tomahawk pilot at the time, but given the chance, I now knew I would be able to fly a 'heavy.'
Shame they are charging for it as a flight experience. Guess I was lucky. But if you have ever wondered to yourself 'could I fly a jet?' you might get a lot out of trying to answer that question for yourself.
Sure, you won't be able to log it, and it wont advance you toward your PPL or CPL.*
But it might do something far more valuable -- you might just show yourself that the job is within your capabilities, and it may fan the sparks of enthusiasm into the fire of determination you will need to achieve that goal.
Go on - do it! You are a long time dead.
How times have changed. In 1992 our flying school had a couple of Air Force pilots that rented lighties for fun, one invited me to ride jumpseat in his P-3C sim session. Exercise complete with 10 minutes to spare, so invited to sit in the right seat and try the HK checkerboard approach! Did ok so they said, try again, fly through the checkerboard! In 1999 I was shown through the Ansett simulator centre in Melbourne as a visitor by a training captain, friend of a family friend, who generously arranged 20min 'flying' the B767 simulator.
Both awesome experiences, but told me one thing - I might only have been a PA38 Tomahawk pilot at the time, but given the chance, I now knew I would be able to fly a 'heavy.'
Shame they are charging for it as a flight experience. Guess I was lucky. But if you have ever wondered to yourself 'could I fly a jet?' you might get a lot out of trying to answer that question for yourself.
Sure, you won't be able to log it, and it wont advance you toward your PPL or CPL.*
But it might do something far more valuable -- you might just show yourself that the job is within your capabilities, and it may fan the sparks of enthusiasm into the fire of determination you will need to achieve that goal.
Go on - do it! You are a long time dead.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: sydney
jwrobbo
I won an hour on a Qantas 747-400 simulator (Temorah Air Show raffle!) made a good fist of landing at Heathrowe and they than managed to dig out from the archives the Kai-Tek approach. The 747 is a delight to fly (very responsive) and I got round the corner at good height and speed but started to wobble badly so had to abort and go around. Great fun. My wife was in the right hand seat handling flaps and gear which she did beautifully. She also flew for a while and and had no problems at all.
The hour went far too quickly alas.
Thanks Qantas
The hour went far too quickly alas.
Thanks Qantas
Joined: May 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 394
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From: Denmark
Instead of finding a more or less artificially moving simulator, mostly doing sleep-inducing movements, might I suggest one to find a flight school that offers aerobatics ?
Unless it's all the buttons and lights and bells and computer logic that turn one on ! In which case the household simulator might do the job ?
Unless it's all the buttons and lights and bells and computer logic that turn one on ! In which case the household simulator might do the job ?
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Why is so expensive?
Well it does cost less then the real thing. but much more than a C152.
That cost is divided by the average use +++.
C152 100.000 US$
Sim up to 40.000.000 US$
Questions?
+ they do need it and you want it
Well it does cost less then the real thing. but much more than a C152.
That cost is divided by the average use +++.
C152 100.000 US$
Sim up to 40.000.000 US$
Questions?
+ they do need it and you want it
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
From: West London
If you really want to have a go on a full motion sim, then shop around to find a reasonable price. There are some people in the market place now that are a good deal cheaper than the ones which advertise the most.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: England
Go for it, ive done the ferrari track day experience and that was brilliant, but landing a 737 in a thunderstorm at night at JFK was awesome to put it mildy, cost a small fortune but worth every penny.
Managed to make an "acceptable" landing in normal visibility as well
Managed to make an "acceptable" landing in normal visibility as well
