Military escorting passenger flights over Alps
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Military escorting passenger flights over Alps
Apparently a number of passenger flights were escorted over the Alps by military jets last week. Can anyone tell me why this was the case?
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French AF 'escort service'
I don't know whether this has anything to do with this: in early Dec. 2007 we entered French airspace close to Lyon without having given a handover by Swiss Control. After a few unsuccessful attempts to call them on both the previously assigned freq. and on Guard (only one US-aircraft replied, negative ground station...), a target was approaching us from behind while at FL430.
As it came closer, a TCAS-RA was triggered which commanded a descent in excess of 2,000 fpm until reaching FL378 (!). We climbed to FL380 and again tried to call anybody and set A7600. We managed to find a freq. of Marseille Control in the enroute chart who then made us aware of 2 fighter jets that have been sent after us for identification. We could identify 2 targets close by and behind us on the TCAS display - now finally without altitude readout... We never acquired them visually.
What a stunt! French ATC requested a written explanation after we had reached our destination and I filed a report with my national authorities, but haven't heard anything so far.
Does anybody know whether this is considered as being 'normal'?
As it came closer, a TCAS-RA was triggered which commanded a descent in excess of 2,000 fpm until reaching FL378 (!). We climbed to FL380 and again tried to call anybody and set A7600. We managed to find a freq. of Marseille Control in the enroute chart who then made us aware of 2 fighter jets that have been sent after us for identification. We could identify 2 targets close by and behind us on the TCAS display - now finally without altitude readout... We never acquired them visually.
What a stunt! French ATC requested a written explanation after we had reached our destination and I filed a report with my national authorities, but haven't heard anything so far.
Does anybody know whether this is considered as being 'normal'?
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There have been stories for some time about French intercepts pulling similar manoeuvres ...
" ...they sneak up behind you above/below your tail (at VERY close range) and when cleared for the intercept of their discreet frequency, they turn on TCAS with mode C. This instantly causes the aircraft TCAS to command a climb/descent. The idea is that if the crew is in control, they will respond to the TCAS - if not ..."
I can see the logic ... but the French really love to showboat !
" ...they sneak up behind you above/below your tail (at VERY close range) and when cleared for the intercept of their discreet frequency, they turn on TCAS with mode C. This instantly causes the aircraft TCAS to command a climb/descent. The idea is that if the crew is in control, they will respond to the TCAS - if not ..."
I can see the logic ... but the French really love to showboat !
Maybe the French have the right to showboat once their ATC learn how to respond to inital calls within the first two attempts! 
I cannot think of too many other countries who have the same problem.
I cannot think of too many other countries who have the same problem.
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AltFlaps, where does your information on the Mode C stuff come from? As far as i'm aware, the FAF Mirage does not have TCAS fitted.
Any of this stuff that i've been involved with has the interceptor(s) squawking Mode A with the C turned off, or with the Mode 3 in standby, so as to NOT set off the TCAS of the "target" aircraft. Standard intercept procedure's being followed including the positioning of one aircraft on the forward lefthand side of the "target" to enable the pilot to check the cockpit out and give the standard signals etc. All of which would be made a lot harder if the "target" is constantly in a TCAS decent!
Any of this stuff that i've been involved with has the interceptor(s) squawking Mode A with the C turned off, or with the Mode 3 in standby, so as to NOT set off the TCAS of the "target" aircraft. Standard intercept procedure's being followed including the positioning of one aircraft on the forward lefthand side of the "target" to enable the pilot to check the cockpit out and give the standard signals etc. All of which would be made a lot harder if the "target" is constantly in a TCAS decent!
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I used to fly military VIPs in a Lear out of Napoli.
Occassionally we flew over Switzerland and were usually asked by Swiss ATC if we minded if Swiss fighters flew practice intercepts on us. Maybe this instance is similar.
Occassionally we flew over Switzerland and were usually asked by Swiss ATC if we minded if Swiss fighters flew practice intercepts on us. Maybe this instance is similar.
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My info comes from a colleague who was intercepted last year - was discussed in great detail at annual security refresher.
I also flew with a chap who was intercepted about 4 years ago - all very smiley and wavy ..etc..
When the French pilot went to break off (he was forward of the left wing tip), he rolled over the top and front of the Boeing and then pulled (inverted) to descend rapidly on teh right hand side of the aircraft. My pal got very upset and filed all sorts of paperwork - said it got VERY close.
I also flew with a chap who was intercepted about 4 years ago - all very smiley and wavy ..etc..
When the French pilot went to break off (he was forward of the left wing tip), he rolled over the top and front of the Boeing and then pulled (inverted) to descend rapidly on teh right hand side of the aircraft. My pal got very upset and filed all sorts of paperwork - said it got VERY close.
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The French are not the only ones, Russian Mig-31s have used BA and Virgin aircraft on polar routes from Narita to "hide behind" in attempts sneak up on the Norwegian coast.
It did not work, and ATC duly informed the crews on the BA/Virgin flights when friendly F-16s arrived to chase the "bandits" away.
It did not work, and ATC duly informed the crews on the BA/Virgin flights when friendly F-16s arrived to chase the "bandits" away.
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As far as i'm aware, the FAF Mirage does not have TCAS fitted.
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Hmm, if they really want to sneak up and intercept without "introducing" themselves on the target TCAS, they would probably turn their transponder off, wouldn't they. Only ATC can see them, as unmarked blips anyway.
Then again, if they're from the stealth type...
Then again, if they're from the stealth type...
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There is a french military maneuver area south of Marseille, over the Mediterranean sea. I think there is a base at Toulon (famous ndb impossible to locate when the controllers directs you there). French army uses to practice there. Flying to STU ¿? after passing over TLS, long time ago, the controller told me that two fighters were practicing and they were going to escort me for a while. I have seen that many times. Army pilots love to use civil aircraft as virtual targets.
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Funny that! The first post on this thread only mentioned "over the Alps"... In other words, who is to say that the interceptors were French, and not Swiss, Italian or Austrian (or even American, based in Northern Italy)? The photo actually shows a Gando, Gran Canaria-based Spanish F/A-18. So the Spanish are at it too.
So why the scare stories about the French AF? For all their antics, these guys are up there for everyone's safety. Get used to it.
So why the scare stories about the French AF? For all their antics, these guys are up there for everyone's safety. Get used to it.
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Chiglet, yeah exactly. The other poster mentioned turning on "the TCAS with mode C", i was pointing out the interceptor involved would have an ATC Mode 3 transponder but no TCAS.
As for ATC being able to see them, yes they would be able to, i guess the civil controllers would see the Primary return, the Mil controllers (Fighter controllers or GCI) will be able to monitor the aircraft through it's other Transponder Modes.
Here's one of mine:
As for ATC being able to see them, yes they would be able to, i guess the civil controllers would see the Primary return, the Mil controllers (Fighter controllers or GCI) will be able to monitor the aircraft through it's other Transponder Modes.
Here's one of mine:
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Revenge
Had this happen a few years ago, with a couple of froggy jets, formating on us.
You could almost see the look of terror on the military guys face when he stalled , as he was to busy waving to notice us powering back slowly
You could almost see the look of terror on the military guys face when he stalled , as he was to busy waving to notice us powering back slowly