"Jumping The Stack"
Thread Starter
"Jumping the Bovingdon Stack"
Folks,
"Jumping the Bovingdon Stack" in mentioned in the British Midland DC9 thread on the AH and N forum.
Would any ATCO like to explain? I'm guessing that, instead of having to cross BNN at 6000ft as per the SID, an aircraft with a "sporting" rate of climb could cross higher, with the lower-level holding traffic underneath, rather than above. Alternatively, I could be deeply misled.....
Hopefully I'm safe here. Mods - please don't move me to the ATC forum. I'm still in therapy from the last drubbing.
"Jumping the Bovingdon Stack" in mentioned in the British Midland DC9 thread on the AH and N forum.
Would any ATCO like to explain? I'm guessing that, instead of having to cross BNN at 6000ft as per the SID, an aircraft with a "sporting" rate of climb could cross higher, with the lower-level holding traffic underneath, rather than above. Alternatively, I could be deeply misled.....
Hopefully I'm safe here. Mods - please don't move me to the ATC forum. I'm still in therapy from the last drubbing.
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No doubt a Heathrow controller from that era will be along to fully explain but from my days watching whilst a controller at Luton-northbound Deps from Heathrow with a good rate-BM DC9's!-would be given early climb to go over the BNN stack, you could see the Mode C readout wizz round while there appeared to be no forward motion on the blip!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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PS - just seen the archive on "The Westcott Snatch". Do I win a prize?
I take it that link will answer your queries so to avoid repetition please restrict posts here to 'Jumping the stack'.
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Midland331 - you got it right in one, for both queries.
Jumping Bovingdon takes a man skilled in the Black Art of TMA control. Hardened approach men have been known to wilt at the sight!
The snatch started long before Westcott... Beacon Hill in my early days. For trainee Radar Directors it's a problem to judge things precisely to fit the snatch into the downwind flow off Lambourne, resulting in some interesting aerobatics over the Amersham/High Wycombe area or the final approach out over Bristol... It gave rise to a classic piece of R/T, which went something like:
Lady pilot to ATC: "Are you going to snatch me before Bovingdon?"
ATC: Silence (everyone crippled with hysterics)
BM Pilot: "Come on London, are you going to give her one or not?"
Jumping Bovingdon takes a man skilled in the Black Art of TMA control. Hardened approach men have been known to wilt at the sight!
The snatch started long before Westcott... Beacon Hill in my early days. For trainee Radar Directors it's a problem to judge things precisely to fit the snatch into the downwind flow off Lambourne, resulting in some interesting aerobatics over the Amersham/High Wycombe area or the final approach out over Bristol... It gave rise to a classic piece of R/T, which went something like:
Lady pilot to ATC: "Are you going to snatch me before Bovingdon?"
ATC: Silence (everyone crippled with hysterics)
BM Pilot: "Come on London, are you going to give her one or not?"
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 6th Feb 2007 at 18:41.
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Midland331 - you got it right in one.
Jumping Bovingdon takes a man skilled in the Black Art of TMA control. Hardened approach men have been known to wilt at the site!
Jumping Bovingdon takes a man skilled in the Black Art of TMA control. Hardened approach men have been known to wilt at the site!
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If you were on Daventry Northbounds, the trick was to keep a stack jumper going, which called for some "creative" vectoring on occasion.....in the days before TC, LMS and LUS, Daventry sector worked every man and his dog in that corner. It frequently got interesting.
Almost as interesting as Clacton Eastbound,in those days, whose challenge was getting the EGKK departure through the herds of traffic routeing Longsand (Logan), Lam, which was worked by Clacton West.
Option a: (fast climbers only) point it straight at the Westbounds and go for it.....got called a f******g cowboy by a trainee who watched me do it once (he didn`t validate)
Option b: Aim for a gap and go for it....one for real radar men.
Option c: Crank it left towards Lam and climb it....then try and fit it in with the EGLL outbounds stampeding through BPK (this last one sometimes known as a Budgie 1A departure after its chief exponent.
Almost as interesting as Clacton Eastbound,in those days, whose challenge was getting the EGKK departure through the herds of traffic routeing Longsand (Logan), Lam, which was worked by Clacton West.
Option a: (fast climbers only) point it straight at the Westbounds and go for it.....got called a f******g cowboy by a trainee who watched me do it once (he didn`t validate)
Option b: Aim for a gap and go for it....one for real radar men.
Option c: Crank it left towards Lam and climb it....then try and fit it in with the EGLL outbounds stampeding through BPK (this last one sometimes known as a Budgie 1A departure after its chief exponent.
Thread Starter
For me, listening to all the fun in the TMA during slow-moving storm activity was mightily interesting; namely, what was acceptable for weather avoidance, yet what kept the whole "show" roughly to script. Fascinating.
I also have dim memories (circa 1991) of a day of nasty storms at EGLL coinciding with "Babbage's Difference Engine For ATC" having some kind of "grand mal" seizure. Was it still the venerable IBM 9020 in those days?
So, weather zig-zagging the inbounds, disappearing and non-existent flight plans screwing up departures. I sank another couple of pints in the shuttle lounge and listened to the fun (discreetly).
One frustrated Byrmon Dash 7 man tried to file VFR to escape to Plymouth.
I admired his creativity.
One bizjet that had been given a slot two hours previously, called for start, only to be told that the machine had lost the flight plan, and he'd have to refile.
r
I also have dim memories (circa 1991) of a day of nasty storms at EGLL coinciding with "Babbage's Difference Engine For ATC" having some kind of "grand mal" seizure. Was it still the venerable IBM 9020 in those days?
So, weather zig-zagging the inbounds, disappearing and non-existent flight plans screwing up departures. I sank another couple of pints in the shuttle lounge and listened to the fun (discreetly).
One frustrated Byrmon Dash 7 man tried to file VFR to escape to Plymouth.
I admired his creativity.
One bizjet that had been given a slot two hours previously, called for start, only to be told that the machine had lost the flight plan, and he'd have to refile.
r
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Midland 331
I`m pretty sure the 9020D was replaced circa 1989....but Nas, its software kept going.
As a watch support controller, I used to have to participate in starting 9020 up in the morning (the engineers used to do unspeakable things to it at night). Amazing process, involving card readers, and arcane instructions typed in to the beast.
I`m pretty sure the 9020D was replaced circa 1989....but Nas, its software kept going.
As a watch support controller, I used to have to participate in starting 9020 up in the morning (the engineers used to do unspeakable things to it at night). Amazing process, involving card readers, and arcane instructions typed in to the beast.
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Tridents? Ground grippers.....One and three in reverse, 12000 fpm ROD.
Those poor old Gatwicks, stuck at 9 thro' SND, unless you were bold.
Option d: "Climb and look" (with acknowledgements to B.C.Whittaker......)
And chaps.......remember the days in the early seventies when the entire Daventry sector flow reversed when Heathrow changed ends? Great sport!
I think we had to tell the DSS to get the strip production right. Timing was a black art too. All that with no CCDS or 64 codes even. And even more fun with no secondary. Remember the shrimp boats? And the shrimp boat dispensers. The shrimp boats were fine until a short Crew Chief fell off his box trying to reach the phones. Some of the tubes had domed screens and the shrimp boats would 'sail' down the slope into the ashtray. Remember the 'totem poles', a sort of Maypole of telephones with aimless CSCs wandering around until they had trussed one of themselves up. Fine until a certain Mr Erl sprinted past and pulled the NATO plug out. Used to get in the way of Mr Leggatt's Cheesecloth shirt stall. And when the first carpet was fitted in 71 the CSCs would practice their putting.....except on the bit where Charlie Peace's jar of honey was dropped. And a certain call from Mr Parker got every controller tap-dancing whilst calmly transmitting instructions to unsuspecting pilots.
Those poor old Gatwicks, stuck at 9 thro' SND, unless you were bold.
Option d: "Climb and look" (with acknowledgements to B.C.Whittaker......)
And chaps.......remember the days in the early seventies when the entire Daventry sector flow reversed when Heathrow changed ends? Great sport!
I think we had to tell the DSS to get the strip production right. Timing was a black art too. All that with no CCDS or 64 codes even. And even more fun with no secondary. Remember the shrimp boats? And the shrimp boat dispensers. The shrimp boats were fine until a short Crew Chief fell off his box trying to reach the phones. Some of the tubes had domed screens and the shrimp boats would 'sail' down the slope into the ashtray. Remember the 'totem poles', a sort of Maypole of telephones with aimless CSCs wandering around until they had trussed one of themselves up. Fine until a certain Mr Erl sprinted past and pulled the NATO plug out. Used to get in the way of Mr Leggatt's Cheesecloth shirt stall. And when the first carpet was fitted in 71 the CSCs would practice their putting.....except on the bit where Charlie Peace's jar of honey was dropped. And a certain call from Mr Parker got every controller tap-dancing whilst calmly transmitting instructions to unsuspecting pilots.
