Helicopter drops big flag over London
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Low Flier, Captain Airclues et al
Thank you for the input, especially the definition of 'congested areas' which I have now read myself in CAP 393. I am not too clear about the arterial road/motorway/railway fitting into the congested area definition, but it seems to me that the flag which I saw jettisoned had definitely overflown Marlow and Bisham, as defined on my half mill map, shortly before the jettison and the law (and common sense) says that it should not have done.
It seems to me that the operators should not be doing this. The town overflying is almost certainly covered by the existing law. Common sense says that overflying roads, motorways and railways with these rigs should also be prohibited - perhaps this activity falls into article 74 - the prohibiton on endangering any person or property. If it does not, the law should be amended to include a prohibition on overflying roads, motorways and railways. Flags of the sizes that are now being used could be lethal if they landed on any vehicle travelling at any speed - in my opinion.
The incident on 5 June was seen by many people on the ground and it was reported in the local press. One for proper supervision by the CAA I would suggest.
Regards
Stoic
It seems to me that the operators should not be doing this. The town overflying is almost certainly covered by the existing law. Common sense says that overflying roads, motorways and railways with these rigs should also be prohibited - perhaps this activity falls into article 74 - the prohibiton on endangering any person or property. If it does not, the law should be amended to include a prohibition on overflying roads, motorways and railways. Flags of the sizes that are now being used could be lethal if they landed on any vehicle travelling at any speed - in my opinion.
The incident on 5 June was seen by many people on the ground and it was reported in the local press. One for proper supervision by the CAA I would suggest.
Regards
Stoic
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Sorry to but in, but I am very keen that this (IMO) important issue is debated here, and I am exercising strict 'editorial' control over non-relevant posts.
Please bear this in mind before posting. There is a thread (the original) on JB where non-'relevant' banter can take place.
Please bear this in mind before posting. There is a thread (the original) on JB where non-'relevant' banter can take place.
Oh for goodness sake guys.......................... flying is on occassion dangerous, are you suggesting a Jumbo shouldn't fly over London in case it crashes!!
EDIT: Not really relevant to this thread but I have left it in to give continuity to the responses below. The rest of the post contributed nothing so has gone. There is a similar thrread running on JB where anyone is welcome to make such posts. I am TRYING to keep what I consider to be an important topic 'clean'!
EDIT: Not really relevant to this thread but I have left it in to give continuity to the responses below. The rest of the post contributed nothing so has gone. There is a similar thrread running on JB where anyone is welcome to make such posts. I am TRYING to keep what I consider to be an important topic 'clean'!
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spot on Surely Not.....
Aviation by it's very nature is inherently risky, we just try to minimise the risks......
If flag flying / banner towing is deemed too risky because of a thousand mights and might nots then should we ban helicopter sight seeing flights, gliding , single engine flights , balloon flights etc etc etc..............
Minimise the risks as much as practicable but you cannot get rid of them all.....there will always be the might happen factor...........
If we let the Nanny State dictate, then we will live in a world full of caution / do not/ beware signs with supposedly "wiser" souls telling us how to go about our lives...... What a dull place that would be !
Anyway no more England flags to look forward to for a least 2 years .....
Aviation by it's very nature is inherently risky, we just try to minimise the risks......
If flag flying / banner towing is deemed too risky because of a thousand mights and might nots then should we ban helicopter sight seeing flights, gliding , single engine flights , balloon flights etc etc etc..............
Minimise the risks as much as practicable but you cannot get rid of them all.....there will always be the might happen factor...........
If we let the Nanny State dictate, then we will live in a world full of caution / do not/ beware signs with supposedly "wiser" souls telling us how to go about our lives...... What a dull place that would be !
Anyway no more England flags to look forward to for a least 2 years .....
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surely not and anartificialhorizon appear to be arguing that we should abolish Rule 65 (5) which says:
Neither of the immediately preceeding two posts show any comprehension of the reason for that safety law.
The reason why we are prohibited from carrying an underslung load over a public road is that we may have to unexpectedly jettison the load. The consequences of such a jettison onto the traffic are likely to be endangerment of human life. That's the reason for the prohibition and that's the reason why the CAA should not wait to be told by the AAIB after the predictable fatal accident that jettisoning these flags onto moving vehicles is likely to cause serious injuries and/or deaths.
A helicopter shall not fly at any height over a congested area of a city, town or settlement at any time when any article, person or animal is suspended from the helicopter.
The reason why we are prohibited from carrying an underslung load over a public road is that we may have to unexpectedly jettison the load. The consequences of such a jettison onto the traffic are likely to be endangerment of human life. That's the reason for the prohibition and that's the reason why the CAA should not wait to be told by the AAIB after the predictable fatal accident that jettisoning these flags onto moving vehicles is likely to cause serious injuries and/or deaths.
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Originally Posted by BOAC
The 'serious' part of this thread is back on R&N if anyone wishes to add serious comment to it.
It appears to have been tucked away out of sight in the wholly inappropriate "spotters" corner.
This is not a 'planespotting' issue at all. It's a serious safety issue.
If we are to abolish Rule 65 (5), as appears to be the proposition, then it is something whiuch ought to be allowed to be discussed seriously, not merely sneered at and thrown away into "Spotters corner" in denial of the importance public safety issues.
EDIT: OK OK! The big boss decided this is where it should be. His train set, as they say. If you feel strongly about this please use the contacts listed in post #6 which has been only partly quoted here by LF.
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Those who compare sightseeing and other kinds of flight over cities with carrying underslung loads over cities miss one most important fact. If you suffer a technical problem in a helicopter whilst carrying out a sightseeing flight then you probably / should / must have a pretty good opportunity to select your forced landing site or to fly away (see rule 5). Once that load departs the aircraft (intentionaly or otherwise) it is not going to select where it lands. I've spent enough time working in and underneath helicopters lifting loads to know that there are times when the hook has a mind of its own (i have the scars to prove it).
I'm all for a sensible attitude to what helicopters are allowed to do over congested areas. This strikes me as going a bit far. In terms of whether or not they are breaking the law - this is so obviously in contravention of law that i assume the operator is operating under an exemption from the CAA.
I'm all for a sensible attitude to what helicopters are allowed to do over congested areas. This strikes me as going a bit far. In terms of whether or not they are breaking the law - this is so obviously in contravention of law that i assume the operator is operating under an exemption from the CAA.
Just another number
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anartificialhorizon
Just to be clear about this, are you saying that it's OK to break the law so long as the helicopter is carrying an England flag, or do you believe that any form of advertising banner should be allowed to be carried over congested areas?
Airclues
Just to be clear about this, are you saying that it's OK to break the law so long as the helicopter is carrying an England flag, or do you believe that any form of advertising banner should be allowed to be carried over congested areas?
Airclues
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In the US...
Originally Posted by Golf Charlie Charlie
What's the position in the US ? Yesterday there was what looked like a Cessna 140 at about 800-1000 feet dragging a huge banner for a TV programme doing a couple of circuits of Manhattan. It seemed to be struggling hard against the wind with a loud engine noise and doing no more than about 50 knots. I did wonder about the flag if it dropped onto a bridge or a freeway....... They also don't seem to have a single engine glide-clear rule over there !
Charlie: Actually, in the US, they are regulated. You must get a waiver to tow a banner each time you plan to do it. You also end up taking responsibility for any damage, which is why any commercial operator is required to have insurance. Check out page 4-1 of this link from the FAA. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...dia/faa-fs.pdf Safety is a major concern.
The flag - advertising Quantas cheap flights - was flown over Old Trafford during the MUFC/Arsenal game. The helicopter sounded a bit laboured. When last seen it was heading North still with the flag attached.
The airspace over Old Trafford can get pretty crowded on match days with a small blimp with a camera and the police helicopter and plane...
The airspace over Old Trafford can get pretty crowded on match days with a small blimp with a camera and the police helicopter and plane...
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banner dropped
Dear all
I am the inventor of the banner system that is now in operations by HOBS This was sold off some years ago now.
It is impossible for the ballast bag to just open,Clearly not rigged correctly. I have done thousands of hours flying globally with banners. They are as safe as any operation as long as you do it correctly.
There is also the point that the banner does not need to be jettisoned if the ballast bag does open....for what ever reason, the pilot stops,evaluates the situation and can fly the banner without ballast to a safe area and land it. There is no need to have a fully operational helicopter jettison a banner, It is only done if the machine has serious mechanical failure. This needs investigation of the operators as I trained them 4 years ago on the correct procedure in just such a case, seems they need refreaher training on the correct way to rig and fly the banners. The operations manager of HOBS should be doing refresher traing of crews and pilots and not just assumming they are doing the right thing. I have offered to re train the operations company and the HOBS operations manager Mr Sporing. I do not expect my phone to ring anytime soon....or at all really as he knows everything.
Safe flying all
SPH
I am the inventor of the banner system that is now in operations by HOBS This was sold off some years ago now.
It is impossible for the ballast bag to just open,Clearly not rigged correctly. I have done thousands of hours flying globally with banners. They are as safe as any operation as long as you do it correctly.
There is also the point that the banner does not need to be jettisoned if the ballast bag does open....for what ever reason, the pilot stops,evaluates the situation and can fly the banner without ballast to a safe area and land it. There is no need to have a fully operational helicopter jettison a banner, It is only done if the machine has serious mechanical failure. This needs investigation of the operators as I trained them 4 years ago on the correct procedure in just such a case, seems they need refreaher training on the correct way to rig and fly the banners. The operations manager of HOBS should be doing refresher traing of crews and pilots and not just assumming they are doing the right thing. I have offered to re train the operations company and the HOBS operations manager Mr Sporing. I do not expect my phone to ring anytime soon....or at all really as he knows everything.
Safe flying all
SPH
