Boeing 747 Incident - 1990's????

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by Rainboe

It's the Tarom one that was videod. Quite spectacular. Now apologise to the Queen of the Skies please- 747s don't do any such disgraceful behaviour! Full retraction needed- not a 747!

Oh yes they do !. Watched a 747 with a mate of mine turn on to finals for MAN 24 over Stockport one sunny afternoon in the early / mid 80's---note he was making the turn over the town so a relatively short approach in prospect-----and watched "with interest" as the left wing dropped--and the nose came up--and up--and up---best way to enter a spin I can think of---and we both thought "oh "---then the power came on and the attitude via a rather extended "S" turn was eventually recovered. The 747 belonged to a "rather large airline based at LHR with a lot of blue and red in the colour scheme" by the way.

[Rainboe]

I'm afraid witness reports from a ground viewpoint can be misleading in the extreme. I would suggest you were perhaps on the inside of the turn viewing obliquely. You can get peculiar visual effects. I had trouble explaining once to my first wife that a very distant contrail coming towards us was NOT an aeroplane climbing vertically! She could not see it. I would say what you witnessed was a visual circuit with a tight turn onto finals (Stockport-MAN about 6 miles=1800'- nothing unusual), maybe a bit undercooked until too late. In approach configuration, the 747 really has its nose very high, and coming towards you slightly after a turn, it will look steep. Any serious transgressions would have been thrown up on the flight recorder to be dissected on the fleet later. I was on the fleet then- it wasn't me and I recall absolutely no such incident!

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by Rainboe

I'm afraid witness reports from a ground viewpoint can be misleading in the extreme. I would suggest you were perhaps on the inside of the turn viewing obliquely. You can get peculiar visual effects. I had trouble explaining once to my first wife that a very distant contrail coming towards us was NOT an aeroplane climbing vertically! She could not see it. I would say what you witnessed was a visual circuit with a tight turn onto finals (Stockport-MAN about 6 miles=1800'- nothing unusual), maybe a bit undercooked until too late. In approach configuration, the 747 really has its nose very high, and coming towards you slightly after a turn, it will look steep. Any serious transgressions would have been thrown up on the flight recorder to be dissected on the fleet later. I was on the fleet then- it wasn't me and I recall absolutely no such incident!

Fair enough---except that we were located on the outside of the turn, ( Heaton Norris to be exact by the railway bridge on the A6 --not the viaduct please note----it's about 3/4 of a mile from there to the North) and, whilst we have both seen plenty of 747's configured for approach and the "nose high" attitude you mention, this was not the case here. The nose came up in the turn--which was undercooked as you say, the power went "off" and there was a visible decay of speed--until the power went back on again--in a hurry!. I have seen very few 747's turn on to finals for MAN at that point, most are usually configured about 10miles away? ( and I have flown into MAN enough times on the jumpseat of various types to know the approach procedures over the years ) hence it grabbed our attention at the time. Sorry, but we know what we saw and both of us have enough flying / aviation experience between us to know that this was certainly an "oh S££t!" moment.

[Rainboe]

It's difficult discussing something observed anything up to 25 years ago now. Being a 747, it is unlikely he was wondering around trying to find final aproach- it would have been done with the knowledge and consent of ATC. Maybe they did get a mite slow and pour on power, maybe not- whatever, it happens and it's not unusual. The 747 gets into a very high drag regime at high AoA so it is standard practice if you are low and slow to be very 'generous' with power. I was certainly aware of no such MAN incident on the fleet. It certainly doesn't come into the category of 'unusual attitudes' we are discussing here.

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by Rainboe

It's difficult discussing something observed anything up to 25 years ago now. Being a 747, it is unlikely he was wondering around trying to find final aproach- it would have been done with the knowledge and consent of ATC. Maybe they did get a mite slow and pour on power, maybe not- whatever, it happens and it's not unusual. The 747 gets into a very high drag regime at high AoA so it is standard practice if you are low and slow to be very 'generous' with power. I was certainly aware of no such MAN incident on the fleet. It certainly doesn't come into the category of 'unusual attitudes' we are discussing here.

OK, I am not saying he was wandering around--far from it in fact and accept the ATC consent --obviously. However, my reference was for anecdotal reasons and, whilst I accept you had access to the Fleet information, I still contend this was a highly unusual event and certainly an "unusual attitude" for such an a/c given the location--as opposed to the former approach for example into Kai Tak. Simply because it didn't make the F/Safety report doesn't mean it didn't happen now does it. ? But I do know what we witnessed and it was far from normal shall we say. If it's any consolation to you, I wasn't having a "dig" at BA / pilots or anybody else--simply recounting an event which, I,felt, fell into the category under discussion. It was memorable enough for me to remember the details after such a long time after all.

[Lump Jockey]

Back to the original post; I remember seeing a clip someone sent in to one of those home video shows of an A320 going nigh-on vertical. Can't say it was over Paris though, but on lookers seemed shocked, so I guessing it wasn't a FBW show of strength at some airshow. Anyone seen it or know what one I mean?
LJ.

[anawanahuanana]

I have to say I'm pretty sure I have also seen video footage (amateur) of an A320 almost doing barrel rolls and going vertical. I thought it was over somewhere like Budapest or Poland maybe. Trouble is, I only ever saw it once, and it was a good few years ago now.
Also, I was working with a very experienced A320 engineer at one point, and he spoke to me about the same incident. If only I could remember the details, or his name!

[nojwod]

Airbus released handling videos of an Airbus demonstrating fly by wire safety, the one I saw was over the Alps somewhere I think and they tried to stall the aircraft at 20,000' or so by pulling up on the control stick, and the aircraft stabiolised at about 30-45 degrees nose up and just kept flying under the computer's command. Presumably they also had video of a whole lot of other tests as well.