Did this landing result in a crash?
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Did this landing result in a crash?
http://www.koreus.com/files/200407/a...age_avion.html
I am hoping someone here has more information...
Thanks in advance!
I am hoping someone here has more information...
Thanks in advance!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I do not think so! There MIGHT have been an interview with the Chief Pilot (assuming it was not him/her in which case a tall mirror is used
)
This was well covered on Pprune some time ago as it is quite an 'old' event - try searching for it. Not sure now where it was (HongKong?) but someone will, no doubt, help?
)This was well covered on Pprune some time ago as it is quite an 'old' event - try searching for it. Not sure now where it was (HongKong?) but someone will, no doubt, help?
The Reverend
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notice the use of rudder turning the aircraft........yes ona 150, no on a 74
Too mean to buy a long personal title
The conditions weren't really difficult - have a look at the smoke from the tyres. This one got a lot of publicity at the time because Flight printed a series of stills of the event across the top of a double page, with the observation (IIRC) that Kai Tak ATC control saw this sort of thing happening all the time, notwithstanding that the aircraft had already flown into the compulsory go-around zone.
For the Alitalia video, try this link.
For the Alitalia video, try this link.
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Besides the fact the final approach is not stabilized, we can't say the Captain has got poor handling skills!
Being able to handling a heavy jet (or a motorbike!) very aggressively, but totally in control of the result (smooth landing, after all) like this, sometimes can, I think, especially in bad weather, make the difference between remaining on the runway or going onto the grass and making a mess.
Just talking about handling skills. Decision quality I don't want to argue in this case.
My bet is, had the same Captain been at the controls of the Varig MD11 which stopped on the grass in CDG in '98, he would had kept it on the runway.
I remember 3 or 4 hours delay that night...
Being able to handling a heavy jet (or a motorbike!) very aggressively, but totally in control of the result (smooth landing, after all) like this, sometimes can, I think, especially in bad weather, make the difference between remaining on the runway or going onto the grass and making a mess.
Just talking about handling skills. Decision quality I don't want to argue in this case.
My bet is, had the same Captain been at the controls of the Varig MD11 which stopped on the grass in CDG in '98, he would had kept it on the runway.
I remember 3 or 4 hours delay that night...
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My $0.02 worth, as an ex-CX pilot....
There was no excuse for not going around on a gross overshoot of the 13 centreline after making the turn. KA, being familiar with HKG, should have been able to make just the same logical assessments of the wind effects on the turn prior to commencing this approach.
We would often brief, for example, expect a tightening wind - turn early if visual / performance gain turning into the wind / wind rotors off Lion Rock if I go too far left when visual on the 088 portion, etc. (Just as we would prior to creeping along the edge of the DMZ in Seoul when landing south).
Anticipation. If it all looks pear-shaped I'll throw it away....
Now, Alitalia perhaps not quite so familiar with Kai Tak, so perhaps caught more by suprise. It looks to me that the MD-11 was battling a slackening wind and undershot final considerably - fun for the lads in the Flying Club, to be sure. A bit of wiggly-woo and he was lucky not to whack a pod, if you ask me....not to mention side-loads on the tires and gear...
A tightening wind with cloudbase at 660 ft was always the most challenging, IMHO. As soon as you broke out you should be turning. However, I too well remember this KA incident, and talking to my neighbour who was in the tower that day - and was justifiably furious. The wx and cloudbase were not challenging - no excuse. ANA did it about a year later with a freighter and blew a donk, going around shedding bits. KA were lucky not to do the same.
There was no excuse for not going around on a gross overshoot of the 13 centreline after making the turn. KA, being familiar with HKG, should have been able to make just the same logical assessments of the wind effects on the turn prior to commencing this approach.
We would often brief, for example, expect a tightening wind - turn early if visual / performance gain turning into the wind / wind rotors off Lion Rock if I go too far left when visual on the 088 portion, etc. (Just as we would prior to creeping along the edge of the DMZ in Seoul when landing south).
Anticipation. If it all looks pear-shaped I'll throw it away....
Now, Alitalia perhaps not quite so familiar with Kai Tak, so perhaps caught more by suprise. It looks to me that the MD-11 was battling a slackening wind and undershot final considerably - fun for the lads in the Flying Club, to be sure. A bit of wiggly-woo and he was lucky not to whack a pod, if you ask me....not to mention side-loads on the tires and gear...
A tightening wind with cloudbase at 660 ft was always the most challenging, IMHO. As soon as you broke out you should be turning. However, I too well remember this KA incident, and talking to my neighbour who was in the tower that day - and was justifiably furious. The wx and cloudbase were not challenging - no excuse. ANA did it about a year later with a freighter and blew a donk, going around shedding bits. KA were lucky not to do the same.
The Cooler King
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notice the use of rudder turning the aircraft........yes ona 150, no on a 74
amazing that the tail section didn't fall off! after all, that's what happens when you use aggressive rudder inputs.......isn't it?
makes me wonder......
amazing that the tail section didn't fall off! after all, that's what happens when you use aggressive rudder inputs.......isn't it?
makes me wonder......
Looked pretty good to me...
Seen worse done in little 'planes with ten knots down the strip in SE UK!...... However, glad I wasn't sitting at the tail end getting knocked out!!
Seen worse done in little 'planes with ten knots down the strip in SE UK!...... However, glad I wasn't sitting at the tail end getting knocked out!!
Here are few corkers from Kai Tak:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/122621/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/076911/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/149179/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/047556/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/034374/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/149185/L/
and possibly the 'best' of the lot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/223248/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/122621/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/076911/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/149179/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/047556/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/034374/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/149185/L/
and possibly the 'best' of the lot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/223248/L/
With MY reputation?
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RRAMJET,
BINGO...!!! You've hit the nail on the head, KAL should know the airfield pretty well, I still feel it's a lot more to do with the "cultural" issues associated with KAL pilots going around, loss of face, etc etc etc...
Just my 2p worth,
PHX
BINGO...!!! You've hit the nail on the head, KAL should know the airfield pretty well, I still feel it's a lot more to do with the "cultural" issues associated with KAL pilots going around, loss of face, etc etc etc...
Just my 2p worth,
PHX
With MY reputation?
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Farrell,
"Loss of aircraft" is acceptable to KAL...
"Loss of face" would not be...
Or at least that's how it appears...
PHX
"Loss of aircraft" is acceptable to KAL...
"Loss of face" would not be...
Or at least that's how it appears...
PHX