Greens against Aviation
When criticising others, it's important to be fair - it strengthens one's case.
The German government clearly spends the money - whether it's wasted, is of-course a matter of perspective.
Except I suspect many forms of marine transportation.
I'm clearly very pro-aviation, but as an Engineer I find much of the technology behind "green" issues fascinating. There are occasions when wind, solar (and even more so wave) power can be economic and a very good idea [and if I lost my medical and couldn't fly the machines I work on, I might switch my professional interests in that direction]. We should give credit to green technology when this is appropriate, maybe we can even use it ourselves.
That said, I do agree with the vast majority of your points.
G
The German government clearly spends the money - whether it's wasted, is of-course a matter of perspective.
2) Commercial aviation uses less land aera per RPK and emits less noise per RPK than ANY OTHER known means of transportation, apart space transportation systems.
I'm clearly very pro-aviation, but as an Engineer I find much of the technology behind "green" issues fascinating. There are occasions when wind, solar (and even more so wave) power can be economic and a very good idea [and if I lost my medical and couldn't fly the machines I work on, I might switch my professional interests in that direction]. We should give credit to green technology when this is appropriate, maybe we can even use it ourselves.
That said, I do agree with the vast majority of your points.
G
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Genghis:
Er ... yeah I forgot the marine means of transportation, mainly because of the fact that they don't carry that many passengers these days anymore.
I perfectly agree that technologies like Wind and Solar power, as well as geothermic energy are facinating technologies and very good sources for niche markets, however as an engineer which has specialized not only in aerospace but in power plants as well, I daresay that these technologies are totally unsuitable for providing the power quality and amount need for large industrialized societies.
SailorOrion
Er ... yeah I forgot the marine means of transportation, mainly because of the fact that they don't carry that many passengers these days anymore.
I perfectly agree that technologies like Wind and Solar power, as well as geothermic energy are facinating technologies and very good sources for niche markets, however as an engineer which has specialized not only in aerospace but in power plants as well, I daresay that these technologies are totally unsuitable for providing the power quality and amount need for large industrialized societies.
SailorOrion
For large towns and cities, absolutely. For desert airports, island communities (Mull !), remote villages, etc. - some of the "alternative" power generation methods make huge sense. And for all of us, "green" methods to minimise noise, pollution, power consumption, etc. make enormous sense.
It's the fascism of those who think we should either completely ignore environmental issues, or become utterly obsessed about them to the complete detrement of the economy that annoys me. I suppose I'm basically an agnostic at heart!
Oh yes, and as an Engineer I get seriously irritated by a particular brand of greenie who goes on constantly about the benefits of "green technology" but can't be bothered to properly understand the technology, how it works, and it's strengths and limitations - or as you said earlier, obtains a basic grasp of that essential tool - maths.
G
N.B. I think if you check you'll find many times more total tonnage are transported by sea than our industry does. The costs of air travel are generally reserved for items that want to get there quickly or they lose value - whether that's people, post, or fresh flowers.
It's the fascism of those who think we should either completely ignore environmental issues, or become utterly obsessed about them to the complete detrement of the economy that annoys me. I suppose I'm basically an agnostic at heart!
Oh yes, and as an Engineer I get seriously irritated by a particular brand of greenie who goes on constantly about the benefits of "green technology" but can't be bothered to properly understand the technology, how it works, and it's strengths and limitations - or as you said earlier, obtains a basic grasp of that essential tool - maths.
G
N.B. I think if you check you'll find many times more total tonnage are transported by sea than our industry does. The costs of air travel are generally reserved for items that want to get there quickly or they lose value - whether that's people, post, or fresh flowers.
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Forgive me if I'm missing the point , but don't we the passengers already pay a tax on the tickets we buy for air travel. The last time I travelled it was £10 each way.
The following statements were in the Guardian in October.
So if these guys get their way there could be a few more redundancies in the airline industry and your cheap Easyjet fare to Paris could be a thing of the past.
The following statements were in the Guardian in October.
Friends of the Earth said a higher rate of tax would help curb the growth in air travel, warning that increased carbon dioxide emissions would prevent the government meeting international obligations to reduce pollution.
Roger Higman, FoE chief aviation campaigner, said: "Increasing air passenger duty has an unstoppable logic and we would fully support it as an effective way to reduce the demand for flying."
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For anyone interested I wrote a thesis about Aviation and the Environment last year. Link to download it in PDF format can be found here:
http://www.areco.org/studies.htm
5th item:
Cordina, Eric. Aviation and the Environment, London City University, July 2002. The thesis generally supports the conclusions that air transportation is a significant and growing environmental problem, with difficult associated governmental and industry decisions needed to be made in order to put long term solutions in motion. It points out that the air and oil industry has resisted moving forward on these solutions in the past, for profit motive reasons, but that the future oil shortages are generally now accepted world-wide and that this acceptance will shift solution perspectives over the next 10-20 years.
http://www.areco.org/studies.htm
5th item:
Cordina, Eric. Aviation and the Environment, London City University, July 2002. The thesis generally supports the conclusions that air transportation is a significant and growing environmental problem, with difficult associated governmental and industry decisions needed to be made in order to put long term solutions in motion. It points out that the air and oil industry has resisted moving forward on these solutions in the past, for profit motive reasons, but that the future oil shortages are generally now accepted world-wide and that this acceptance will shift solution perspectives over the next 10-20 years.
Uni bloke
Genghis, Loughborough used/may still do a Aviation and Environment course, I have helped them on occasion with that, it may have been someone from there.
There are plenty of sensible 'green' orientated aviation people out here, however the press usually gives precedence to either the green tax and restrict approach
, or the aviation 'dont live near an airport, bloody NIMBY' view 
, because I suspect like reality TV shows, it all gets a little dull when sensible debates get involved! 
Nerik, interesting theseis, just had a quick skim through it, hope it does/did well for you!
There are plenty of sensible 'green' orientated aviation people out here, however the press usually gives precedence to either the green tax and restrict approach
, or the aviation 'dont live near an airport, bloody NIMBY' view , because I suspect like reality TV shows, it all gets a little dull when sensible debates get involved! Nerik, interesting theseis, just had a quick skim through it, hope it does/did well for you!
Last edited by jumpseater; 12th Dec 2003 at 17:23.
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Thanks jumpseater. The thesis went well thanks. My personal opinion is that it is only new technologies i.e. hydrogen that will help find a balance between traffic growth, environmental problems and fossil fuel shortages in the future.
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I have developed an aircraft the emits nothing but hot air. I took the green party and strappen them nice and safe inside a gas turbine casing after removing the fan unit.
Exactly the same thing came out the back end as when it was a gas turbine. Yep you got it Hot Air!!!!
But being serious. I have a debate with a greenie once and you can throw facts at them like there is no tomorrow but they wont listen.
I started a thread about 1 month ago on aircraft pollution on go the same stats as above.
PAX miles etc.
I used the bus analagy once. A bus is better then a car because.......blah blah blah.
Same person flew on an A320 to go on hols mind
Exactly the same thing came out the back end as when it was a gas turbine. Yep you got it Hot Air!!!!
But being serious. I have a debate with a greenie once and you can throw facts at them like there is no tomorrow but they wont listen.
I started a thread about 1 month ago on aircraft pollution on go the same stats as above.
PAX miles etc.
I used the bus analagy once. A bus is better then a car because.......blah blah blah.
Same person flew on an A320 to go on hols mind
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Well if one considers that some of the low cost carriers sell tickets for a quid and APD is £10 , then they are being taxed 1000% which must make flying as a pax the most highly taxed activity in the UK. 
Still behind the curtain
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Fuel
As regards to fuel, mostly diesel for trucks is painted pink or red so that if anyone looks at it at the border, it should not be contraband. Some times the suppier does not do this. **** happens, however. Sometimes VAT is charged, but rarely.
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Before i start this, i hate nimby's and the like and i would love to stuff an exhaust pipe down most greenie's neck. However i'm gonna play devil's advocate here.
There are some serious issues in the green side of things. If expansion stays the same then in 2-3 years time Heathrow will exceed uk and european directives around pollution. The airport may have to become limited in it's capacity, not because of runway space and so forth but because of actual pollution. A large portion of this pollution comes from cars/busses etc. travelling to and from the airport. The M4/M25 junction is the busiest stretch of road in europe and a high polluter.
LAX in 1994 (i think) became the first airport in the world to be limited in capacity not by a/c movements but by the sheer weight of road traffic going to and from the airport. Congestion is also a form of pollution. The planners in and around heathrow are seriously considering some form of road pricing scheme (like good 'ol ken in london) to reduce this form of pollution. They will try to force people onto busses and onto the heathrow express etc. They will also try to get employees to use car sharing and so forth.
Something does have to be done about it. People usually don't associate other costs to their travel apart from their own personal costs. There is also a heavy social cost involved which includes pollution and time. Economists have several fancy formulae to work out what this noise and other pollution works out as a monetary value. I suspect this is where the greens get their figures from.
Like i said, i hate your average green as much as the next guy, but something does have to be looked at in terms of pollution and so forth.
There are some serious issues in the green side of things. If expansion stays the same then in 2-3 years time Heathrow will exceed uk and european directives around pollution. The airport may have to become limited in it's capacity, not because of runway space and so forth but because of actual pollution. A large portion of this pollution comes from cars/busses etc. travelling to and from the airport. The M4/M25 junction is the busiest stretch of road in europe and a high polluter.
LAX in 1994 (i think) became the first airport in the world to be limited in capacity not by a/c movements but by the sheer weight of road traffic going to and from the airport. Congestion is also a form of pollution. The planners in and around heathrow are seriously considering some form of road pricing scheme (like good 'ol ken in london) to reduce this form of pollution. They will try to force people onto busses and onto the heathrow express etc. They will also try to get employees to use car sharing and so forth.
Something does have to be done about it. People usually don't associate other costs to their travel apart from their own personal costs. There is also a heavy social cost involved which includes pollution and time. Economists have several fancy formulae to work out what this noise and other pollution works out as a monetary value. I suspect this is where the greens get their figures from.
Like i said, i hate your average green as much as the next guy, but something does have to be looked at in terms of pollution and so forth.
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had to look up verdant there. Ahh a dictionary still has a use. I know it was, but like i said in the post i was playing devil's advocate. Evironmental economics is a large part of one of my modules in my degree.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Aaah I see. By the way with that hosepipe poking down your collar you won't get the top button done
Oh, and Nick's lawyer generaly doesn't take a stand on either side.
Oh, and Nick's lawyer generaly doesn't take a stand on either side.
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Well a major part of my degree & the subject I'm hoping to major in is Environmental Studies & coincidentally we're getting the head of the Green Party in to head one lecture after Xmas (& a fine thing he is too).
My lecturer is Indian & returning home soon for a while is always harping on about CO2 transmissions & the Greenhouse Efffect. I get a great kick in winding him up, starting off with
"If you wants to do your bit to reduce the greenhouse effect & provide a good example how about firstly leaving your swanky sports car at home & cycling to college & instead of flying to India I sincerely hope that your going to row". (No I haven't been thrown out of the class yet)!
Incidentally I do remember where some major environmental event was being held abroad & participants were encouraged not to fly to it but try to use some other means of transport that was less fuel guzzling & more environmental friendly.
Looks like I'm destined to be a hypocrite for the rest of my life, an environmentalist (not a wacky one, they do more to turn people off environmental issues more than anything), an aviation enthusiast & fairly regular flyer. Shucks
My lecturer is Indian & returning home soon for a while is always harping on about CO2 transmissions & the Greenhouse Efffect. I get a great kick in winding him up, starting off with
"If you wants to do your bit to reduce the greenhouse effect & provide a good example how about firstly leaving your swanky sports car at home & cycling to college & instead of flying to India I sincerely hope that your going to row". (No I haven't been thrown out of the class yet)!
Incidentally I do remember where some major environmental event was being held abroad & participants were encouraged not to fly to it but try to use some other means of transport that was less fuel guzzling & more environmental friendly.
Looks like I'm destined to be a hypocrite for the rest of my life, an environmentalist (not a wacky one, they do more to turn people off environmental issues more than anything), an aviation enthusiast & fairly regular flyer. Shucks
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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The essential argument of the Greens is correct; at the present rate of consumption we will not only run out of fossil fuels sooner rather than later, but pollute the planetary ecosystem beyond reasonable hope of repair. The short-term economic consequences of addressing the problem, however, are so severe that they do not bear thinking about for the common citizen. Civil aviation is not the only sector that would fail.
It is a juggernaut of our own making that we ride.
It is a juggernaut of our own making that we ride.
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There is abosolutly nothing wrong with trying to make the world just a bit cleaner. I have two kids, who I hope will never have to eat 3 eyed fish ( think “Simpsons`). The newer generation of Aeroplanes and engines are much cleaner, queiter and more efficient than lets say DC8/B707 etc, why, because fuel got very un-cheap, lets make another quantum leap, and leave the fossil fuels where we found them, on the ground. Let the greenies scream and shout, Hitler did that, and look what happend to him.
Doc
Doc
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I too have 2 kids and would like them to have a cleaner environment to live in. However aviation is not the main culprit for mucking the environment up.
If aviation does get tax breaks I doubt they are enough to offset the huge cost of re-equipping with newer more fuel efficient and quieter aircraft.
Then what do we get - you cannot run your APU between the following hours..........hmmmm I know, lets plug in a dirty great diesel generator called a GPU instead - yep makes sense!
OK but I want to do some base training on Saturday and Sunday while the airfield is fairly quiet............ No sorry thats out of the question you have to do in the week when you are competing with the schedules for irritating the neighbors, but my shiny new jet is ultra quiet........ hmmmm makes no difference might as well be a 707 for all I care!
I could go on at great risk of boring everyone to death but I think the point is made.
If aviation does get tax breaks I doubt they are enough to offset the huge cost of re-equipping with newer more fuel efficient and quieter aircraft.
Then what do we get - you cannot run your APU between the following hours..........hmmmm I know, lets plug in a dirty great diesel generator called a GPU instead - yep makes sense!
OK but I want to do some base training on Saturday and Sunday while the airfield is fairly quiet............ No sorry thats out of the question you have to do in the week when you are competing with the schedules for irritating the neighbors, but my shiny new jet is ultra quiet........ hmmmm makes no difference might as well be a 707 for all I care!
I could go on at great risk of boring everyone to death but I think the point is made.
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Since the very fact that one exists is an irritant to another of our species, is in itself an indication of just how hard we are to please. The fact is, that whatever anyone does is going to be getting up someones elses nose. The general idea is for us to get a consesensus of informed, logical and reasonable opinion, on how best to proceed with our lives on this planet with the least disruption and adverse impact on the bulk of its inhabitants.
Whatever is chosen is not going to please everyone, never can, and never will. What we do have to try to do is weed out the more extreme and the minority fringe ideas, not that some of those could have been life saving, deep insightful, and possibly planet saving ideas, rather than we have to move forward together or not at all; otherwise we have a dictatorship, be it of political correctness, facism, racism, secularism, or any other minority agenda. For in general the human race in their precarious position of present pre-eminance have decided that dicatatorships are not the way to go...although having said that, they are still somewhat divided on that issue???
Wow!! "Eats shoots and leaves." might be my required reading for Xmas.
Whatever is chosen is not going to please everyone, never can, and never will. What we do have to try to do is weed out the more extreme and the minority fringe ideas, not that some of those could have been life saving, deep insightful, and possibly planet saving ideas, rather than we have to move forward together or not at all; otherwise we have a dictatorship, be it of political correctness, facism, racism, secularism, or any other minority agenda. For in general the human race in their precarious position of present pre-eminance have decided that dicatatorships are not the way to go...although having said that, they are still somewhat divided on that issue???
Wow!! "Eats shoots and leaves." might be my required reading for Xmas.
Last edited by Paterbrat; 15th Dec 2003 at 19:21.
