From the "Ryanair- stranger than fiction" file...
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From the "Ryanair- stranger than fiction" file...
Well, there I was, walking into work at EDI. I was walking past stand 1B, which as any EDI regular will know is at the end of the cul-de-sac and the stand that Ryanair generally park on- must be the cheapest.
As I walked by, I spied a Ryanair 737 entering the cul-de-sac. It was travelling pretty quickly- as usual- and making a hell of a lot of noise. This was probably because it had its reversers deployed and was using a fair amount of power to get some retardation. I was really starting to wonder if it had lost all wheel braking and was just about to impale itself on the blast fence... but no, it turned left smartly and once again deployed its reverser buckets to slow its arrival onto its stand.
Maybe it is a new Ryanair ploy to save money on brake packs.
Whatever the reason, being a 200 it was making a s*itload of noise using reverse, never mind the blast effect from the reversers, which was picking up loose stuff on the stand and hurling it at the ground crew.
And there I was, thinking reversers are supposed to be used to slow you down on the [B]runway[\B]...
Anyone from Ryanair care to comment on this new procedure?
As I walked by, I spied a Ryanair 737 entering the cul-de-sac. It was travelling pretty quickly- as usual- and making a hell of a lot of noise. This was probably because it had its reversers deployed and was using a fair amount of power to get some retardation. I was really starting to wonder if it had lost all wheel braking and was just about to impale itself on the blast fence... but no, it turned left smartly and once again deployed its reverser buckets to slow its arrival onto its stand.
Maybe it is a new Ryanair ploy to save money on brake packs.
Whatever the reason, being a 200 it was making a s*itload of noise using reverse, never mind the blast effect from the reversers, which was picking up loose stuff on the stand and hurling it at the ground crew.
And there I was, thinking reversers are supposed to be used to slow you down on the [B]runway[\B]...
Anyone from Ryanair care to comment on this new procedure?
Before "Ze Germans" get here
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BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has been done to death before, use the search function:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ir+why+so+fast
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ir+why+so+fast
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...xi+why+so+fast
All different threads, wonder why links look the same?
Bored to death with all the heffing moaning about Ryanair, let it go!
NEXT!
This has been done to death before, use the search function:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ir+why+so+fast
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ir+why+so+fast
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...xi+why+so+fast
All different threads, wonder why links look the same?
Bored to death with all the heffing moaning about Ryanair, let it go!
NEXT!
Last edited by My names Turkish; 28th Sep 2003 at 08:44.
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He he he, spot all the over-sensitive Ryanair pilots/supporters/hangers-on... 
The more intelligent amongst you would have noticed that it wasn't so much Ryanair bashing (an airline for which I actually have a lot of respect- the only really successful euro low-cost operator), but more an exploration of whether or not using thrust reversers in the ramp area is a)SOP, b)dangerous and c)downright stupid.
So, those of you with sufficent intellect to see the point, feel free to answer...
The more intelligent amongst you would have noticed that it wasn't so much Ryanair bashing (an airline for which I actually have a lot of respect- the only really successful euro low-cost operator), but more an exploration of whether or not using thrust reversers in the ramp area is a)SOP, b)dangerous and c)downright stupid.
So, those of you with sufficent intellect to see the point, feel free to answer...
It's a standard procedure at some smaller US airports for jets to reverse-thrust, or Powerback, when moving back from the terminal, avoiding the use of a tractor to push out. But it certainly makes a lot of noise and several airports seem to specifically ban it in their rules.
I've never seen it done in Britain.
I've never seen it done in Britain.
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Lets face it, ryanair are only successfull because airports pay to have them operate from there. Every other lo co does not need to be paid to fly to an airport. If ryanair airports were all to succum to the fines which recently were imposed to strasbourg, then it would most definately be bye bye Ryanair, or they would have to increase prices.
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Standard procedure may be stretching it a bit, but I have certainly seen powerbacks done at a number of US airports by a number of US airlines, notably AirTran and American. Think it's done mainly if not entirely with rear-engined airliners, eg. 717, MD-80. I think the issue is that, while it may not be dangerous inherently, there may be more stress and wear on engine components, plus there could be higher FOD risk, to people as well as the engines themselves. It also wastes a lot of fuel. I don't think there's much justification for it at busy hubs (despite AirTran doing it at Atlanta), but there may be a need for it at remote locations and/or at small fields. Some carriers, I do know, do not allow it at all under their SOPs.
I have never seen powerbacks done anywhere outside the US.
Of course, all this has nothing to do with Ryanair or anyone else using reverse thrust on taxi or to slow down on the ramp, both of which I have seen sometimes from Ryanair (eg. at STN). I don't know whether this is good or bad practice. On this forum, you pay your money and take your choice - views are, to put it mildly, somewhat polarised.
I have never seen powerbacks done anywhere outside the US.
Of course, all this has nothing to do with Ryanair or anyone else using reverse thrust on taxi or to slow down on the ramp, both of which I have seen sometimes from Ryanair (eg. at STN). I don't know whether this is good or bad practice. On this forum, you pay your money and take your choice - views are, to put it mildly, somewhat polarised.
RD,
It's true. I even heard your esteemed leader suggest that a CRJ crew should have done it rather than incur a delay waiting for a tow bar. Certainly on jet aircraft I have flown with tail mounted engines it was allowed. Not sure about a/c with under wing engines as I would have thought there was more of a risk of FOD ingestion. Any 737 / Airbus pilots out there who can comment...
It's true. I even heard your esteemed leader suggest that a CRJ crew should have done it rather than incur a delay waiting for a tow bar. Certainly on jet aircraft I have flown with tail mounted engines it was allowed. Not sure about a/c with under wing engines as I would have thought there was more of a risk of FOD ingestion. Any 737 / Airbus pilots out there who can comment...
Raw Data:
Indeed it is (or was) quite common for aircraft such as the DC-9/MD-80 to power backwards off the stand on at least a lot of American airfields. I particularly remember watching this going on while I was refuelling (I think it was at Raleigh/Durham).
On modern airfields the ramp should always have an up-slope as you approach the gate (have you ever noticed how you might have to put a bit of extra power on at the last minute)?
This makes it easy for the tug to push you back even if you are very heavy. Therefore it is easy to get an aeroplane to move backwards if you should decide to dispense with the expense and inconvenience of using a tug and your aeroplane has a suitable power/weight ratio.
Having done a lot of reversing when I had propellers, I have to tell you that the secret is in knowing when and how much brake to use in order to stop rearward movement. If you get it wrong the aircraft will sit on its arse and you will suffer huge personal embarrassment.
If you are not as skilled in this manoeuvre as those who do it every day, please don't try it!
Indeed it is (or was) quite common for aircraft such as the DC-9/MD-80 to power backwards off the stand on at least a lot of American airfields. I particularly remember watching this going on while I was refuelling (I think it was at Raleigh/Durham).
On modern airfields the ramp should always have an up-slope as you approach the gate (have you ever noticed how you might have to put a bit of extra power on at the last minute)?
This makes it easy for the tug to push you back even if you are very heavy. Therefore it is easy to get an aeroplane to move backwards if you should decide to dispense with the expense and inconvenience of using a tug and your aeroplane has a suitable power/weight ratio.
Having done a lot of reversing when I had propellers, I have to tell you that the secret is in knowing when and how much brake to use in order to stop rearward movement. If you get it wrong the aircraft will sit on its arse and you will suffer huge personal embarrassment.
If you are not as skilled in this manoeuvre as those who do it every day, please don't try it!
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MOR, it may have been more tactful to have left the name of the 'violator' out of the discussion. This avoids accusations of 'bashing' Ryanair, or any other company.
As another poster above implied, some people are biased, no matter what.
As another poster above implied, some people are biased, no matter what.
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Ahhh yes, all very well but if I hadn't mentioned the name, it would be difficult to establish if this is an SOP, n'est pas?
The lack of a simple "yes" or "no" leads me to believe that it is probably a no-no.
The lack of a simple "yes" or "no" leads me to believe that it is probably a no-no.
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Pushing back was standard procedure in USA / Canada on the 727s when operating on remote fields. Never seen done on the 73s.
I guess the habbit will stop when one ground staff will be injured by a flying object blasted forward
I guess the habbit will stop when one ground staff will be injured by a flying object blasted forward
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Have to agree completely with JW411. Trying to be a smart arse some years back (and a little under pressure) I attempted to reverse a turbo-prop from a stationary position only to discover that the nosewheel was of the castoring variety and when I tried to move forward again it all got very embarassing!
So now that the originator of this thread has discovered that reversing (from a standing start) off stand is a common practice in that part of the world which has more aeroplanes than the rest of us put together would, perhaps, like to have a rethink?
I appreciate that you might not see very much excitement at your home base but it is not at all unusual to exercise the reversers a couple of times to get rid of a transient fault before bursting into print.
It has already been said a hundred times before but trying to stop a fast moving aircraft in a confined space using thrust reversers simply will not work. The brakes are always many, many times more effective.
I appreciate that you might not see very much excitement at your home base but it is not at all unusual to exercise the reversers a couple of times to get rid of a transient fault before bursting into print.
It has already been said a hundred times before but trying to stop a fast moving aircraft in a confined space using thrust reversers simply will not work. The brakes are always many, many times more effective.
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jw11,
I have no probs with a/c "powering back". Indeed I have seen a DC8 do it..albeit on a disused runway.
The thread was using "Reverse Thrust" to stop, or at least [slow down] on the Apron ,
" So now that the originator of this thread has discovered that reversing (from a standing start) off stand is a common practice in that part of the world which has more aeroplanes than the rest of us put together would, perhaps, like to have a rethink"
No mention of pushback....rather a Taxi/Stop question
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I have no probs with a/c "powering back". Indeed I have seen a DC8 do it..albeit on a disused runway.
The thread was using "Reverse Thrust" to stop, or at least [slow down] on the Apron ,
" So now that the originator of this thread has discovered that reversing (from a standing start) off stand is a common practice in that part of the world which has more aeroplanes than the rest of us put together would, perhaps, like to have a rethink"
No mention of pushback....rather a Taxi/Stop question
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy