Seeing as BAE Systems sold all of the UK satellite manufacturing in the first place you can hardly expect them to be buying anything back.

The whole idea of a new UK GNSS is preposterous.

It's yet another example of politicians dreaming something up without consulting anyone who actually understands the reality.

I'm sure some think anything is possible once we've "taken back control" and saved all that dosh by not being in the EU.

( Just to be clear, and to avoid any possible further confusion, no I don't think there will be any nationalisation or BAe buy back)

I have always found the paper version of GPS (a map) was pretty reliable. Except, of course, in the Empty Quarter! In fact, using GPS once caused me a bit of a flutter when showing a couple R.N. types around Kuwait post Gulf War 1. We had a radio site literally on the border with Iraq and the matelots were busy picking up souvenirs from the debris left behind by the Iraqi forces. I looked at the GPS and was informed I was in Iraq by some distance. A quick check on the paper version (an aeronautical chart of the area), proved I was still in Kuwait.

I watched this documentary about the construction of Astra 2F by Astrium in the UK. Very interesting.


Astrium was formerly EADS Astrium and is now part of Airbus Space.and Defence. Sites at
Stevenage and Southhampton in the UK.

What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?

The same as all the other foreign-owned industries. They will stay or go according to their owners' requirements.

They will 'take back control' .

they like other manufacturers will move to were it is cheapest to produce the product.

I am very cynical that the constellation could be used as a replacement GPS system without replacing all the satellites with ones designed for purpose.

On the other hand, as the USA did with Iridium, the UK has a chance to acquire a large satellite comma system for pennies, and at the same time save it as a UK technology base rather than let it be snatched up by the USA, or worse China through who has companies asking to bid.

https://www.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-...b-b24493315140

UK scales back plans for £5bn rival to Galileo satellite system

Ministers are set to scale back plans for a £5bn sovereign satellite navigation system — a project championed as a symbol of post-Brexit Britain — and are considering a groundbreaking alternative that would cost billions less and could draw US support.

Former prime minister Theresa May announced plans for a British rival to the EU’s Galileo system in 2018 when the UK was kicked out of the satellite project after Brexit; Boris Johnson endorsed the plan last year shortly after succeeding her. Mr Johnson’s allies confirmed the government was reviewing “Theresa May’s plan”, amid warnings about its high cost, but work is under way to see if Britain could develop a much cheaper satellite navigation capacity at a fraction of the estimated £5bn price.

Officials are exploring the potential for a system that would deliver the same civil and military tracking services as Galileo and GPS of the US while operating at a lower altitude and on a different frequency.

One option is to use OneWeb, the UK-licensed satellite operator that collapsed in March, as the platform for the new technology. Industry estimates say it would cost roughly $1bn to develop. OneWeb, which has 74 satellites in low earth orbit and plans for several hundred more, is further ahead on regulatory approvals than rivals, say several people close to the discussions. However, any such proposal would require government support for OneWeb, which is the focus of a bidding war after entering Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection three months ago. It would also require UK-based OneWeb to be sold to a British bidder.

Late last week Boris Johnson ordered ministers to move quickly to convene a meeting of the National Space Council, which has been in limbo since its launch a year ago, to fast-track decisions on a UK navigation service, as well as a series of other space-related initiatives. People close to the situation said no firm decision on the preferred option had yet been taken by the government and it remained “finely balanced”. But officials have consulted Airbus, the UK’s leading satellite maker, has confirmed that a low earth orbit navigation system could be developed at substantially lower cost.

Moreover, the US is pushing its partner in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance to avoid replicating the GPS system, said three people with knowledge of the situation. “The Americans do not think a British Galileo would be sufficiently different to GPS,” said one. “They understand the vulnerabilities of GPS. They want something technologically different.” US officials had been drawn to the idea that key navigation technology could be “hidden in plain sight” on up to 80 of OneWeb’s planned 648 satellites, making them harder to compromise, according to two people who held discussions with both US defence officials and the UK government.

In early March, Stuart Martin, chief executive of the Satellite Applications Catapult, told the Financial Times that while it would be challenging to develop this “cutting-edge” technology on satellites at low orbit, the UK had the expertise and it would be highly exportable. “This would offer something genuinely different that enhances GPS,” he said. “It is another way to achieve a global system at lower cost and it makes more economic sense.”

OneWeb, which has been locked in discussions with officials for several weeks, has pledged to move satellite production from Florida in the US to the UK if management wins government support for its bid. However, the company will also have to raise at least $1.5bn from private investors to fund the launch of the remainder of its satellites. The group was forced into bankruptcy protection after failing to secure funding from investors including its biggest backer SoftBank.

David Morris, the Tory MP who chairs the parliamentary space committee, said the UK should seize the opportunity to support OneWeb. “Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service. The government could put a fraction of that into the LEO OneWeb system, securing a global commercial operation for the UK.”

Of course, they would have to be replaced. All that could be salvaged are the orbital slots and the frequency allocations - which were not obtained for GNSS use and would need regulatory approval.
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.

Given the fiasco of the UK going it alone on the Covid-19 tracing app, I fully expect this daft idea, forced upon the UK by daft decision, will be late, and dysfunctional.

It is a bit like the VHS. Betamax, Philips systems. If one had come in years before the others, who would have invented two others.

The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?

GPS may be vulnerable but how long would a new system be less vulnerable.?

Don't worry. It'll never happen.

Any system that depends on accurately receiving nanowatts of power from outer space is vulnerable to jamming. And any system which involves one-to-many communication with millions of receivers cannot be protected cryptographically, and is therefore also vulnerable to spoofing. Any claim otherwise is just hot air.

This is a constant theme, where we British believe everything we have is "the best in the world" or "world beating".

We've got the best legal system in the world, the best health service in the world, a world beating Covid-19 tracking system, the world's best climate, the world's best universities; and I'm sure our virtually unique (outside of the Commonwealth countries) three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world.

Most of these claims are false; however we are among the best in most of the fields, save the for the climate over which we as little old UK has no control.

Our air of self importance and supremacy has got us where we are today; largely deluded.

ATNotts
My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesmen / women in the world, but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in many experience.

A friend used to use the analogy of setting up a house in the UK where you have an unlimited budget so apart from the actual land, and possibly (but not guaranteed) the building there of,which British products would you put in it ? As I like music I know I would use UK Hi-Fi (I do) which is probably the best in the world, however at significant cost, and all other products from flooring on up would probably be sourced outside of the UK which says it all really. "World beating" is something we have largely left behind in the race to make things cheaper, much the same has occurred in the US as well.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

The UK is fairly good at lots of things - and very good at some others - things like finance, music, very high end tech (Dyson, RR, F1 cars), some biological sciences

Unfortunately these aren't were most people work

Asturias 56
Not sure I am in the market for F1 car or a McLaren / Bently etc and have had Dyson product and after a lot of discussion reached a financial settlement with said company over damage caused to carpets not to mention reliability. As for finance I think it is a two edged sword and for an individual or indeed company I have never found UK institutions to be any good in that line even when we were UK based. They are very good when times are good, but appalling when 2008 came about, hence we as a company no longer use UK Banks or Insurers. By Biological sciences I assume you mean research rather than production. As for Music, yes I agree though probably because English is the "world" language which undoubtedly helps. As you say these are small areas of the economy, and not where most of the UK population work, and as we have such a large population this specialisation would really only work if we were say the size of Switzerland. Indeed if you count Swiss leading brands in some of the fields you mention eg Roche,Suzler, and any number of banks, then perhaps that is what the UK should follow, but what do you do with the other circa 40m people !!
Cheers
Mr Mac

Mr Mac

Our salesmen (and women!!) may well be excellent, however so many of them, when confronted with a non-native English speaker are left with little alternative but to wave their arms wildly and shout very slowly in English! This puts us at an immediate disadvantage against our European brethren in many cases. My former German colleagues were usually fluent in at least two foreign languages, generally English, plus Spanish and or French and or Italian.

No we can all sit their high and might and say "everyone speaks English" but that simply isn't true, and people you are selling to are always more comfortable when talking in their own language. Talking "foreign" for any length of time can be mentally tiring.

Cheers!
ATN

ATNotts
Yes I should have added women (I have altered that in the post ) and your observation re the language is unfortunately quite true. In our office we use German and English commonly but we have (I just checked with HR) 9 other languages spoken by our staff at fluent technical level. As you say we have around 51% German staff and all have a good if not excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Cheers or should I say Prost !
Mr Mac

Mr Mac,

Zum Wohl!

ATN

No idea about other european countries, however, in most german states to get A levels you need to have two foreign languages in the mix. German, however, is optional ;)

English is usually a given, the second language can be usually chosen dependent on staff available, although sometimes schools in a city pool pupils into one course for the more rare languages, like russian or mandarin.

Which can often be quite surprising. The Indian waiters at Faslane with broad Glaswegian. The German, with immaculate American English of another German woman with good English "she is very common, you can tell from her German" and a French exchange school girl , beautiful English but very coarse French.

Finally a French waiter in Biarritz, immaculate English that 'e 'ad learnt in 'alifax. 😀

PS, met a young man from Singapore, also immaculate and idiomatic English. Until two years previous he had had no English at all. It can be done.

No good at languages at all.

6 years French at school and then, many years later, I lived in Paris for two years, but working in an English speaking multinational environment. Result? Pidgin French which I have mostly lost.

Later lived in Spain for 3.5 years, again working in an English speaking environment. More determined this time I took Spanish evening classes 5 days a week for 6 months. Similar result at the end, pidgin Spanish which I have mostly lost - worse, I now mix up by French and Spanish vocabulary.

Always good with numbers and STEM subjects, absolutely terrible with names. People think I’m joking for not remembering their names after knowing them for years. I think it’s that whole left-right brain thing.

No, I'm afraid it's an age thing!!

Also to some degree a technology thing. I used to keep tens, probably towards one hundred phone numbers in my head; then along comes the mobile phone. Now I can't remember my daughter's numbers - don't need to because they're on my bl***y phone! Tech will slowly turn us into brainless morons, if we allow it to.

No, couldn't remember names when I was a Flt/Sqn Cdr back in my 20/30s. had to have a wall of photos and go over it almost daily and still got by lots of times by avoiding using names most of the time.

At the same time they tried out new test papers on me because I had the reputation of knowing all the manuals and ODMs back to front and usually got a 100%.

ORAC, I know what you mean about Franish. I once ordered 13 coffees.

That must have been a doozy.......

This will provoke a hollow laugh from anybody in UK familiar with the recent Test & Trace debacle

Denti
My PA speaks Russian, though she was born in what was East Germany, and her parents spoke it, so not unsurprising maybe although she was born in 1991 so post wall removal. However her knowledge of English / French /Spanish/ Italian / Arabic is a little more of a challenge for my limited skills ie German and Spanish, but the later is from South America (Chile) so when I worked in Spain in late 80,s I got ribbed about my "old" Spanish. Also in Bavaria, as you may know the accent is some what different to my Northern German accent, again causing some smiles amongst my staff. Mind you I always used to struggle when trying o understand excited Glaswegians when they were speaking English, God knows what other people from overseas do !

Orac
I have the same issue, but I do remember faces, so when meeting a new team or client who I recognise, we play the old 10 questions about careers to find where we last were working together. As my sector is a little like the travelling circus, I am not alone thankfully in this. Mrs Mac who is 10 years younger however, seems to remember everything about the people she works with, including children's names, and even their careers which I would have no hope with, which maybe why she is better at her career than me !!

Cheers
Mr Mac

AT Notts

Except that the '13 Amp' plug is only rated at 10 amps continuous and gets hot at 13.....

I had a young Kazakh lad working for me back in the naughties. We were having a quiet time and I spotted him reading a Spanish language book.

"Why are you learning Spanish Adil?" says I

"I'm going there on holiday in 6 months, I should be pretty fluent by then and it's rude to arrive in a country without being able to communicate!"

I shut up at that point as my Kazakh was non-existent and my Russian was seriously ropey! He actually was fluent when he left thus adding Spanish to his stock of other languages: Kazakh, Russian, Turkish and English!

"perhaps that is what the UK should follow, but what do you do with the other circa 40m people !!"

For £400 million (1960 - prices) you could send them to Australia - LOADS of space

Asturias
I thought we had done that sometime ago, and they do not want us anymore, something about wining Poms !!. I have never been down there, but told by those that have to skip Aus, and move straight onto NZ ! Ironically we maybe picking up a contract in NZ which will be a first for us, so I may get to see what all the fuss is about soon.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...race-6v783gzj2

Britain puts $500m into satellite race

Boris Johnson is poised to secure the $500 million part-purchase of an American satellite operator as the first step in creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.

The prime minister and Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, signed off the purchase of a 20 per cent stake in OneWeb, an operator of low-earth orbit satellites, last night. Although the government technically is making a bid for the stake, British officials said the transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

OneWeb, which has its headquarters in Britain, filed for bankruptcy in March partly because of the pandemic. Other states, including China, are believed to have been interested in taking a stake. The firm already has 74 of a planned 650 satellites in orbit and claims to be able to deliver broadband and military and civilian GPS on completion......

Senior ministers were being briefed on the purchase at a special meeting of Cobra last night. It is not yet clear whether the relocation of OneWeb’s satellite manufacturing from Florida to Britain was a condition of the government taking a stake.

Airbus is likely to emerge as supplier of the low-earth satellites in any network, industry sources said. It is unclear when the purchase will be made, but it is understood that Alok Sharma, the business secretary, has been tasked with completing the deal.

The purchase of OneWeb will be intended as a statement that Mr Johnson remains committed to a sovereign system despite the ravages of the pandemic. A well-placed source warned that the purchase was “messy”, however, and may not provide best value for money. An industry expert said: “We probably won’t ever know whether it’s a good deal or not.”

The 1960s Ten Pound Poms were beneficial to both Britain and Australia as this movement of people had the effect of raising the average IQ in both countries.

Perhaps Boris could ask Huawei to get it working for him.

Sallyann 1234
Not sure if it is just me, but $500m seems a little cheap, its the price of 3-4 secondary schools, or one medium sized hospital in the UK.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

$500 million part-purchase, not the whole thing.

The money seems to be for part-purchase of a bankrupt satellite operator, and nothing more.
Another larger investment would be needed to complete the project as the planned communications network.
To change the system to operate on the same principles as existing GNSS would require complete replacement of all hardware both in space and on the ground, so not a wise investment from that point of view.

But I recall that when the OneWeb system was originally promoted there was a suggestion that it could have a secondary function as a positioning system. I haven't taken the trouble to read up on the theory of this - it will be on the web somewhere - but it would be totally incompatible with existing receivers and of unproven accuracy. If Boris has bought into OneWeb in the expectation of making such use of it I hope he taken much expert advice.