Norfolk Farmer Jailed
 

Admittedly nothing to do with aviation, but just heard that the Norfolk farmer who shot dead a 16 year old burglar has been found guilty by a 10-2 majority verdict and jailed for life.

Interestingly the judge said the case should serve as a clear warning to other burglars! Seems to me it's just the opposite. Come and burgle all you want, guys! We'll just fail to police the countryside properly and then woe betide any poor householder who decides to actually defend his own property!

What happened to Englishmen and their castles? Wouldn't happen in the USA!

I couldn't believe it either! But then I've also heard of burglars who have got themselves injured breaking in, and sued the owner of the house!
The only thing I've heard that was OK was a guy who wired up his car to give anyone who tried to break into it a huge electric shock. He had notices on the car to that effect. Well someone did try and break in, and tried to sue the owner of the car. And failed.
But as for burglars, hell, we may as well invite them in, and give them dinner too - I mean it probably comes under civil rights or something. Quite unbelievable.
I'm not saying its right to shoot someone, and maybe he did overdo it a bit, but how did he know the people breaking in weren't going to try and kill him? Whats he meant to do, wait until he is injured or dying and then at least he will be OK in court?
We are getting closer and closer to the ridiculous legal state of the USA.

I'd say it's an unsafe conviction which will be overturned on appeal. Even an art student of my acquaintance (and aren't they all lefty liberals?) thought so.

However, as a policeman remarked, - "No winners in this one." Tragedy all round.

You are right, Max. Nothing to do with aviation but such a serious situation that it is absolutely right that it is mentioned here.

I have seen some crazy things in my life but what I have seen today defies description. This sort of nonsense does not occur in the US and it should not occur in the UK.

What sort of a crazy screwed up system is it that puts a man away for simply defending himself against burglars? What sort of message does this send out to the ever growing criminal community?

The judge in handing out the sentence said that " this should serve as a dire warning to those who burgle" and "Homeowners can use reasonbable force" but at the same time hands down a life sentence!!!

The person who really made me furious tonight was the Chief Constable of Norfolk who said that he agreed with the sentence and that people should leave Burglaries to the Police!!!!!! How many times had Mr Martin been burgled before? Had the Police done anything about it?

If Mr Martin had gone out of his way to locate a criminal before blowing them away or had popped off ramblers on this land that would have been a completely different matter but all he was doing was sitting at home minding his own business!

It is very easy for the PC brigade to argue that he went beyond what was reasonable but I would say to them that it is very easy to make these statements in the cold light of day. Try being rational when you are in the middle of nowhere during the night confronted by a gang of criminals. You don't know how many there are or how well they are armed. They aren't interested in being 'reasonable' and yet you as the victim have to use balanced reason in making your decision whilst scared out of your mind!! I am not for a minute saying that its right to kill someone but in this situation he had every right to defend himself.

And remember these 'fun loving and devoted people' had 115 convictions between the three of them!

I am absolutely disgusted at what has happened today. An innocent man has been handed a sentence similar to those who have coldly kidnapped, tortured and butchered children. The man has no criminal past and was simply minding his own business. This is not justice by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

The whole business is a grotesque miscarriage of justice and leaves me extremely distressed. I will be writing to my MP and would strongly urge anyone who agrees with me to do the same. This country is descending into a criminal infested cesspit and the 'system' only seems to be interested in defending the rights of those who inflict constant misery and suffering on others.

The only shred of hope is talk of an appeal. I hope and pray it is successful.

I hope everyone on this Forum agrees. Remember, this could happen to any one of us.

My thoughts are with Mr Martin (and only Mr Martin) tonight. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif




[This message has been edited by Doors to Automatic (edited 19 April 2000).]

DtA :

1) Although he'd been burgled before Mr Martin apparently did not contact the police. This is only what I've heard reported on the radio news, so I might have heard wrong.

2) If someone is convicted of murder, the only sentence which can be imposed is life. There is NO discretion on that, since it's stipulated in law. It may well be that someone sentenced to life will not be incarcerated until they pop their clogs inside.

3) A neighbour of Mr Martin's was recorded as saying ( and this isn't verbatim, but as good a paraphrase as I can remember ) that "if this hadn't happened last year then it would have happened sooner or later". Other people interviewed gave their impressions of Mr Martin's views on how to deal with burglars and other criminals, which appear to have involved a great deal of "blowing their heads off" and "machine-gunning them". Add to that, he had apparently had his fireams/shotgun licence revoked and his weapons removed, but still obtained a pump-action shotgun, a recipe for disaster.

I don't want this post to be read in any other way than that of expounding on the info mentioned by DtA, but anytime someone kills someone else the circumstances must be investigated fully by the police and it's then down to the courts and juries to decide. After all, juries are made up of the same people as you and I.

WNR,

Well, this particular jury was clearly soft in the head!

WNR,

The reports also said that most locals had lost confidence in the police to protect them. Mr Martin may have been eccentric but mostly he was terrified of crime and was not prepared to sit around and let it continue happening. At the end of the day why should it? I stand by everything I say.

I can tell you that if this jury had been made up of people like me Tony would be a free man by now and the criminals would have been sent a clear message. Unfortunately the view that criminals should be protected to the nth degree, at the expense of everyone else, seems to be the commonly held one.

Not a happy verdict. This happened in my family's part of the world - they're in the same business not too far away and have been burgled several times over the last five years. Firearms in the house is an entirely normal state of affairs in the Lincolnshire/Norfolk agricultural community and the first thing my father said to me in relation to this case was "There but for the grace of God...".

It was hardly surprising the trial took place some distance from the location of the event - no local jury would have convicted the defendant.

Well said DTA.

I was with a friend at a small claims court hearing not long ago and had the opportunity to pop into a number of crown court sittings - to look at the jurors it was clear something was amiss - this was clearly not a representative sample of the British public - morons wearing baseball caps the wrong way round, football shirts, fat women, long-haired blokes - I'm told it's really easy to get out of jury service if you're any kind of productive worker!

Which just leaves the dross. And they call it justice!

Here beginneth the sermon.....

We all know people who are too busy or indispensable or important to sit on a Jury. They write to the court, and are usually excused, because a reluctant juror is a potential problem. So all of the busy educated successful people get themselves excused, and then on Sunday morning in the pub they moan about the poor quality of juries these days.

All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men should do nothing, as someone said.

Here endeth the lesson.

I am of course oversimplifying, but if the cap fits......

You've lost me, Max C. Why would a fat woman be any less capable as a juror than a thin one?

Speechless,

Fair point, and I withdraw the comment about fat women.

I was just trying to paint the picture of a modern-day jury as I saw it with my own two eyes; more like an Oprah Winfrey audience than a representative sample of the British people.

I believe the all encompassing phrase you're seeking is "Trailer Park Trash".

As regards the verdict I think it was the only one that could be arrived at. Whilst I don't want to see the UK legal system descending into the mire within which the USA resides (where you have to put warnings on hot food that it's hot :rolleyes: ) I wouldn't want to see it go to the other US extreme; that of people shooting each other defending their VCR. If your life or that of your family is at risk then, yeah, go for it but it can never be worth killing someone over a burglary. It's only "stuff" for heaven's sake. I'm not condoning a soft approach to justice here though. Once these the burgling !!!!!s are caught they need to actually suffer justice not enjoy it. Social workers and do-gooders bemoaning their upbringing and sending them off on safari are not what they need. A good shoeing is.

'Git orf my laaand!'

Not like me to come over all cuddly and liberal but the quote below - taken from today's Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...212232,00.html -

does tend to indicate that the jury got it right.

---------------------------

The court heard that Martin, who had a vitriolic hatred for burglars and Gypsies, had come downstairs with a pump-action Winchester shotgun and fired at the two men.

Barras had pleaded for his life, shouting: "I'm sorry. Please don't. Mum." In panic, Fearon, who was seriously injured, pulled out a rotten window and he and Barras jumped through. It was not until the next afternoon that the teenage boy's body was found.

That is typical of what I would expect to read in a tenth rate publication like the Guardian. It seems to forget that:

1) He had been done over several times before

2) The police had done b*ggerall to protect him because, let's face it, all they are interested in these days is meeting their targets laid down by the spineless politicians for speeding fine revenue.

3) The real criminals in this case were not exactly your schoolboy apple scrumpers - 115 convictions between them

4) When forced to make the decisions that I sincerely hope none of us ever have to make he did not know a) how many burglars he was dealing with b) how well armed they were

As I said before and will say as many times as I have to Mr Martin acted quite correctly and it is absolutely outrageous that he even had to justify himself in court never mind be found guilty.

For all those that disagree, What would you do in the same situation?

StopStart, how are you meant to establish the motives of a person who breaks into your house? I guess you will just ask him? Look kind sir, are you here to put the lives of my family at risk or do you just want my VCR? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by Drop and Stop (edited 21 April 2000).]

I would not shoot dead an unarmed man (or boy) who was begging for mercy.

JN :mad:

I take it from your post that you seem to be taking the moral high ground on behalf of the two pieces of S#&T that this poor chap had to deal with. My regret is that he didn't get the other one in the head.

1. Did this young scamp of a lad actually say theese things or is this just what his poor injured fellow low life theiving scum partner in crime remembers/fabricated?

2. Mercy you say, i dont actually believe that he was executed! Didn't he die of his initiall wounds?

3. Next time your down route/on det and on the phone to your male life partner/wife etc just stop and think how much mercy you would show if you discovered that somebody was breaking into your house and endangering them.

I am not a right wing gun toating facist BUT God help me if i am ever in this poor fellows shoes i hope i have the balls to defend my house/family with conviction. Whilst i do not whish to live in a society of gun culture like the US, the one issue i feel they have got right is the right to defend your hearth and kin. I know that there have been high profile cases which were the extreme (the shooting of a jap student in Texas spring to mind) but the right to defend yourself in your own home must be sacresant. Whilst staying with a Viper driver mate in Phoenix it was made clear to me that the reason his house was protected by a 120lb german shepard and a cupboard full of guns was not so he could "wope sum ass" for fun, but to make sure that if that someone came calling ,who cared not a dam about his human rights, he could send him to God and let him be the Jury.

My sympathy is only for this poor farmer and for the next victim, and at 115 counts and counting i am sure there will be another one,of the prosecutions star witness.

JN - The question wasn't what wouldn't you do, it was what would you do?

It's a simple enough question.

:mad: :mad: :mad: