Being a pilot now, but coming form an agricultural background it seems the whole world has it in for those on the land. Seeing all the comments of the police not responding to farm burglaries, I thought I was reading about Zimbabwe!

Drop and Stop: I take it you're of the Shoot first ask questions later school of thought. So you discover Steven Smackhead in your house and you're armed. What do you do? Blow his head off on the off chance he's the local axe murderer? Your family'll thank you for that as you're escorted off to the clink for the rest of your life. Surely the threat of force should be enough. If, of course, the guy is high on crack and appears to be armed and threatening then yeah blow his brains out. You'll probably be doing him a favour anyway.

This whole thing is Bullocks. The guy should of been let off, when all said and done what the hell are people meant to do http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

If a burglar is in your house in the middle of the night and you are alone and in the middle of nowhere knowing that the police won't respond for atleast 2 hours what do the police want you to do. Go and greet them and offer them Tea. I don't think so.

The crims are winning the battle at the moment, they can pretty much run riot and when they are stopped they scream blue murder and all of a sudden are the victims of society. Saying this guy was "fun loving and a great kid" what a load of s**t 29 convictions including assualting an officer and agrevated assualt on members of the public, and all this before he was 16!!

The other thing that I can't understand is the Farmer was found not guilty of attempted murder on the other scumbag. How can he be guilty of murder on one hand and acquited of attempted murder on the other, that just doesn't make sense :)

I hope i'm not coming across as liberal pinko over this. AH makes a valid point - we, society in general, are being held hostage by political correctness and the assertion that everyone, no matter what, has certain rights. I personally don't believe that any member of Joe Public has the right to take anothers life. On the other hand , I do believe that once you start breaking laws and inflicting pain and grief on people for your own gain you sign away most of your other rights. The crap that usually surfaces over these sort cases is unbelievable. Terrible upbringing, broken home etc etc. Not relevant. The law's the law. Break it and you pay the price. In this case, the kid didn't deserve to have his life taken away but he does deserve to suffer for his crimes. 129 other convictions? Clearly the legal system is falling down here. Borstal was what this little f*cker needed but not a shotgun to the back of the head. Of course the parents will come out with the usual "loveable scamp" !!!!!e but then he was their kid and didn't burgle their house (probably did though and they never knew about it).
Still, if you're going to shot people why not just use buckshot etc? You won't kill the little !!!! just, with any luck, blind or cripple him. Course, problem there is that he'll then sue you :rolleyes:

SS, the point that I was trying to get across is that it would be difficult to ascertain the lowlife's motives in a very short period of time. Being woken in the middle of the night to somebody breaking in is enough to give anybody a heart attack, if you had a gun the first thing you would do is grab it (well I would do anyway). Hopefully switching the lights on and yelling FARK OFF whilst waving a gun around would be enough to scare him off (I don't think he'd be coming back in a hurry!).
I do mostly agree with your last post, I believe that when a person decides to break the law they sign away their rights as a human being, I feel that person has as much right to life as a feral animal………..and you should not get life for killing a pest. That's what I think.
On a funnier note I once saw a no trespassing sign, it read: Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again!!! Done in jest of course.

Or on a gardener's fence : Tresspassers will be composted!

I'm not a lawyer, and know nothing of this case, apart from that written above, but seriously, the only excuses in law (and morally corectly IMHO) for killing someone is to[list=a][*]Prevent yourself from being killed, or[*]Prevent the death of another, and[*]a legally sanctioned killing, as in war or an exectution ordered by the courts[/list=a]

Now belting down stairs with a shotgun and shooting a burgalar doesn't fall into any of those categories. It wasn't reasonable force, and thus it was murder.

Belting downstairs with a shotgun, pointing it at a burgular, and shouting "Freeze scumbag", then calling the police while holding the burgular would be more appropriate. Perhaps if you buy a shotgun for the purpose of self defence, you should also buy a couple of pairs of handcuffs. (Goes well in your defence, as to intent, later as well.)

Note that you life doesn't have to be threatened in fact, you only have to prove (ie convince a jury) that you believed it to be threatened. Perhaps this guy just needed a better defence.

I have followed this story with great interest since the day it happened. I had a suspicion of the way it would turn out, and time has proven that suspicion!

I wonder if the decision might have been different if he had either stabbed him to death or used some other means to kill him?

I wonder what would have happened, if the burglars had inadvertently killed their victim?

As the odds of being caught and convicted for murder sometimes appear low in the UK, perhaps his biggest mistake simply wasn't killing them both?

Regarding shooting someone pleading for mercy. Enter my house uninvited in the middle of the night and it will all be over before you get a chance to utter the first word in defence!

The people that really made my blood boil were the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable of Norfolk. If they had done their jobs properly the 'fun-loving baby' would be well behind bars doing a very long stretch for his 28th offence and Tony Martin would be living in peace.

The crap that they both came out with on TV after the verdict beggared belief. Whilst the Chief Constable's only suggestion was to, and I quote directly: "Make a lot of noise", all JS could offer was that it was for the courts to decide whether force used was reasonable.

So, let's get this straight, Mr Straw; Some thieving Gypsy scumbag with no regard whatsoever for the law attacks me in my own home, the home that I have worked hard for, and then its up to me to have to defend my actions in front of a jury? Real election winner there, Mr Straw!!!

Just how out of touch with public opinion are you?

Why not......

WARNING!

BURGLARS WILL BE SHOT

SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN

Doors to Auto, if you kill somebody I certainly hope that your actions are the subjuct of scruitiny! What do you want ?? A licence to kill anyone on your property?

Checkboard,

Well, actually, yes, or something very like it.

That would surely be the best possible deterrence against burglars.

Look at it this way - if you were a career criminal, specialising in burglary, and a proper right of defence was available to a householder, shoot first and ask questions later and no prosecution, how long would it be until you thought about a career change?

It's a serious question for the country. If you literally cut people's hands off for a theft conviction, you'd find the rate of theft would seriously diminish, but it wouldn't disappear completely. It's a balance. IMHO the balance of toleration has drifted too far towards the criminal and his "rights".

This issue should be a godsend for the Conservatives. If they were to enact a proper right to defence in your own home, I might even start voting for them again!

So Checkboard,

You don't think I should have the right to defend myself in my own home?

OK, picture this: Middle of the night, pitch black, I hear noises. I don't know how many burglars there are, whether they are high on drugs, how well tooled up they are. I am in the middle of nowhere so no one will here me if I "make a lot of noise".

Exactly what should I do? Well, Checkboard? We are all waiting .......


Max Continuous - Couldn't agree more!

He should have shot them both in the legs and claimed the gun went off (er, twice) when he fell down the stairs. That way he would have had some form of defence and these thieving bastards might have had the rest of their lives to consider the error of their ways from the comfort of a wheelchair.

The only thing I can see wrong with this scenario is that the taxpayer would then be footing the bill for the rest of their days however given the cost of having them lose in society (or banged up from time to time) I think I could live with it.

I'm not a raving right winger, just someone who is sick of seeing scumbags living off decent members of society rather than going out and making an honest living. In my previous career I used to see upward of a dozen people a week who had been burgled. The sight of elderly people too scared to open their doors when they should be relaxing and enjoying their retirement is not something I enjoyed.

Flintstone,

I am in full agreement with you there. How much time has been spent by the PC brigade including that idiot Chief Constable sympathising with the family of that thieving gypsy over the last week?

What no one seems to be able to grasp is that they are a thoroughly bad lot - if placing a price on Tony Martin's head was not bad enough now there are suggestions of tampering with the jury.

These people do not give a stuff about the law and yet when things go wrong they seek its full protection. People like Jackass Straw then suck up to them beacuse it is the Politically Correct thing to do.

What about the OAP that got beaten half to death (by burglaring scum like Barras) in Exeter over the weekend? I don't see the Guardian reading idiots in power up in arms about the pain that she has suffered!!!

Straw....suck

Geddit?

:)

Jackass Straw is more appropriate

*Scene in court*

Judge: Well young fella-me-lad,you have now been convicted of B&E and I know have to pass sentence.

*puts on black silk square*

You shall be taken from this place to a place of execution, and there shall be hung by the neck until dead.

Right - NEXT!

*Cheers from Doors to Automatic and Max Continuous, sitting in the gallery

The simple fact is that with a progressive system of punishments the courts (at least not since the 1700s) don't execute people for robbery, and neither should you! Defending your person against an attack is a different matter.

God help me if I ever break down near your place, and wander up to your front door in the dark looking for a phone!

... you would be welcomed with open arms and I would do all I could to help you get moving again.

Would I be correct in assuming that if this happened you would actually ring my front door bell and request help rather than breaking into my house through a rear window?

*Scene in Checkboard's house*

Lying in bed on a windy night, you hear the sound of tinkling glass downstairs and furtive movements in the lounge and then footsteps coming up the stairs. Your children are sleeping peacefully in their beds.

*Checkboard: "Hello?! Hello?! Who is there?Are you a burglar?"

*No reply*

*Checkboard: "If you don't answer me you'll leave me no option but to shout for help! That'll teach you!"

*Still no reply*

*Checkboard: "Okay, you've asked for it; I'm going to have to use reasonable force to restrain your activities!"

*Burglar: "!!!!!"*

This is what happens when "unreasonable force" is NOT used:


"PENSIONER SPRAYED IN FACE BY RAIDERS

Masked burglars sprayed a noxious substance in the face of a pensioner during a burglary on his flat.

The burglars entered the flat in the Sparkenhoe Street area of Highfields at 9.30pm on Thursday and stole cash.

The man was treated at the scene by paramedics but did not require hospital treatment. He was left shocked and distressed by the incident.

Det Con Ben Maguire, of Asfordby Street station, said: "Two men wearing balaclavas entered the flat of the 67-year-old man and stole cash. Before leaving the premises, they sprayed a noxious substance in his face."

Officers are appealing to anyone who saw any activity in or around the Sparkenhoe Street area or knows anything about the incident to contact them.

Inspector Neil Canham, also of Asfordby Street police station, said: "Offences like this disgust me. This was despicable.'' "


Personally I could not have cared less if this pensioner had unloaded an illegally held pump-action shot gun into these two "loveable rogues".

Who in their right mind would want to defend this trash?



[This message has been edited by Doors to Automatic (edited 01 May 2000).]