Is NASA’s SLS Doomed?
NASA needs to be bold in this era of intense and sometimes highly critical scrutiny. Not to mention a distinct lack of consistent political support. Different times.
Turns out there is another brilliant engineering design decision that's forcing further postponement. The Launch Termination System electrical system is completely independent of the rest of the launch systems electronics (for good reason). As a result, it's battery powered.
So far, so good. Rational system design.
Not so rational - the battery is life limited, with a maximum of 25 days from installation to when it needs to be serviced (just increased from 20 days in the last couple weeks) - and it's not serviceable on the pad
. So once the launch system leaves the Vehicle Assembly Building, they only have 25 days to launch it, or it needs to be returned to the VAB. That is simply horrible engineering - the sort of thing a first year engineering student would know better. $4 Billion plus per launch, and they couldn't be bothered to provision the Launch Termination System to be serviceable on the pad 
.
So far, so good. Rational system design.
Not so rational - the battery is life limited, with a maximum of 25 days from installation to when it needs to be serviced (just increased from 20 days in the last couple weeks) - and it's not serviceable on the pad
. So once the launch system leaves the Vehicle Assembly Building, they only have 25 days to launch it, or it needs to be returned to the VAB. That is simply horrible engineering - the sort of thing a first year engineering student would know better. $4 Billion plus per launch, and they couldn't be bothered to provision the Launch Termination System to be serviceable on the pad .
Artemis 1 now for sale on craigslist:
https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/m...530346653.html
Doesn't mention the battery however.
https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/m...530346653.html
Doesn't mention the battery however.
Turns out there is another brilliant engineering design decision that's forcing further postponement. The Launch Termination System electrical system is completely independent of the rest of the launch systems electronics (for good reason). As a result, it's battery powered.
So far, so good. Rational system design.
Not so rational - the battery is life limited, with a maximum of 25 days from installation to when it needs to be serviced (just increased from 20 days in the last couple weeks) - and it's not serviceable on the pad. So once the launch system leaves the Vehicle Assembly Building, they only have 25 days to launch it, or it needs to be returned to the VAB. That is simply horrible engineering - the sort of thing a first year engineering student would know better. $4 Billion plus per launch, and they couldn't be bothered to provision the Launch Termination System to be serviceable on the pad .
So far, so good. Rational system design.
Not so rational - the battery is life limited, with a maximum of 25 days from installation to when it needs to be serviced (just increased from 20 days in the last couple weeks) - and it's not serviceable on the pad
. So once the launch system leaves the Vehicle Assembly Building, they only have 25 days to launch it, or it needs to be returned to the VAB. That is simply horrible engineering - the sort of thing a first year engineering student would know better. $4 Billion plus per launch, and they couldn't be bothered to provision the Launch Termination System to be serviceable on the pad .I haven't looked any further but this be a temporary requirement that was imposed by the USAF rather than something should (or perhaps could) have been foreseen at the design stage.
Before the pendulum swung back in favour of Boeing (Michoud) the J-2X was in test. This archive film report of troubleshooting liquid hydrogen snags identified on Apollo 6 might be relevant. Incredibly, the next Saturn V launch (first manned mission) was straight into lunar orbit.
I have to wonder why NASA didn't start by building a Saturn V - they surely must have kept all the blue-prints? They know it works, and must have gigabytes of data from all the Saturn V launches, that could be used to improve that vehicle where possible with advances in technology and material science since the 1960's.
However, let's be honest; the money spent would have gone a long way to solving other far more pressing and important problems, e.g. renewable energy.
We really don't need to go back to the moon, or any other moon, to see if there is life there: we need to sort out life on this planet first.
However, let's be honest; the money spent would have gone a long way to solving other far more pressing and important problems, e.g. renewable energy.
We really don't need to go back to the moon, or any other moon, to see if there is life there: we need to sort out life on this planet first.
#U/L
You might find this paper of interest. It references the actual reason why the US has such a strong interest in returning to the Moon. The official line from NASA is to land a woman and person of colour at the Lunar south pole, and some of the astronaut corps who are candidates for Artemis III have already started rotary wing training. However, that distracts from the fact space is becoming a contested domain, which will inevitably test the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. The ultimate goal is mining.
https://medium.com/@ToryBrunoULA/cre...e-b111044887e8
You might find this paper of interest. It references the actual reason why the US has such a strong interest in returning to the Moon. The official line from NASA is to land a woman and person of colour at the Lunar south pole, and some of the astronaut corps who are candidates for Artemis III have already started rotary wing training. However, that distracts from the fact space is becoming a contested domain, which will inevitably test the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. The ultimate goal is mining.
https://medium.com/@ToryBrunoULA/cre...e-b111044887e8
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
I have to wonder why NASA didn't start by building a Saturn V
Every single electronic component is 60 years out of date and replacing them would need every part, and the sub-systems, systems etc, re certified and tested.
Most if the manufacturers, lowest-bidder, of the 5 million components won’t be in business any more, or the chains to certify their products if they were.
Nobody to manufacture the engines - and they wouldn’t use the methods, equipment or alloys used then - leading back to the certification issue.
Look at the problems they’ve had with the SLS using engines, boosters and electronics they already have - then multiply them a million fold.
might as well ask Boeing to build new 707. They wouldn’t be able to source the parts, have the equipment or jigs to put it together, meet the H&R rules to do so - and then the FAA wouldn’t clear anyone to fly on it anyway..
Indeed. Sadly the 'correct' procedure would have been to build upon the success of the Apollo program and develop the technology over the following decades. Onwards towards Mars...rather than just stop and take a different route (Space Shuttle). However, the money (i.e. political will) was not there. So far as I can tell, it's barely there now. 
Looks like next launch attempt 23 or 27th September, if work being done on the pad to fix last weeks problems succeed and the US Space Force/Eastern Range give a waiver on the battery reset.
NASA targets next Artemis I launch attempt, but a lot has to go right | collectSPACE
NASA targets next Artemis I launch attempt, but a lot has to go right | collectSPACE
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Looks to be launching in about 20 mins, 0540 GMT. Barring another hold...
Edit: Planned 30 min plus hold at T-10 mins... looks like about an hour hold.
(Just been looking at ADSB, 2 NASA helicopters about, plus a WB-57 and a Gulfstream 5 to the west of KSC)
Edit: Planned 30 min plus hold at T-10 mins... looks like about an hour hold.
(Just been looking at ADSB, 2 NASA helicopters about, plus a WB-57 and a Gulfstream 5 to the west of KSC)
Last edited by treadigraph; 16th Nov 2022 at 04:40.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
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Received 342 Likes
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Launched successfully and all seems to be going well so far. Artemis hopefully heading to the moon and I suppose I'd better go to Tesco. How mundane...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
All seemed so very retro.
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…
I was hoping to maybe see Artemis orbiting the Earth, or even the rocket igniting for it's burn before it got light in Europe, but sadly ALL the live feeds are either still, or showing the launch of a while ago. Anyone care to guess why the live-feeds aren't working ? Does anyone know what the panned timetable is ?
All seemed so very retro.
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…
https://eu.floridatoday.com/story/te...on/7571432001/
All seemed so very retro.
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…
Totally throw away boosters, totally throw away booster - including the 4 Shuttle main engines at $500M each. Only a few seconds of onboard video before cutting back to a ground camera trying to keep a small dot in the middle if the screen.
All building up to an eventual launch where SpaceX launch a couple of totally reusable boosters and Starships to refuel in orbit before taking their lunar lander to the moon to RV with Artemis to shuttle the crew to the surface, bring them back up, then refuel the lander for the next landing before recovering the Starship back to earth to be used again.
Sort of like a historic re-enactment where you have a copy of Columbus ship being filmed by a modern support ship as it leaves harbour and shuttling the crew about using their tender when they need to get go ashore…