UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system.
Psychophysiological entity
It's hard to imagine that once INS was developed to even just current technology, the ability to abandon hundreds, or thousands? of satellites wouldn't be all too tempting. Jamming them would be a lot more of a challenge.
Even my cheap GPS can INS for short distances.
I guess the receiver costs would be much higher, so the vendors are very pro using for free the difficult part of the project. Just think, the adjusted cost of a GPS is a 1/20 th of the cost of a Sinclair Executive Memory in 1973
Even my cheap GPS can INS for short distances.
I guess the receiver costs would be much higher, so the vendors are very pro using for free the difficult part of the project. Just think, the adjusted cost of a GPS is a 1/20 th of the cost of a Sinclair Executive Memory in 1973
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pr00ne
You said it - globally integrated. That is exactly why we are leaving so we are free to globally integrate. It is the EU leaving us and withdrawing.
All those brave Brexiteers really do need to recognise what a globally integrated economy we are and how badly Brexit is going to damage it.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I believe the encryption units in the Galileo satellites are UK manufactured and covered by various security agreements - perhaps even ITAR regulations (e.g. algorithms used to generate daily changing encryption codes). If the UK withdraws clearance for export then moving production abroad is not an option - unless those who do so wan5 to face long jail sentences. Additionally, use of any existing equipmen5 by Galileo if the existing clearances and licences were withdrawn would also be illegal.
In this instance the EU Commission really is cutting off its nose to spite its face.
In this instance the EU Commission really is cutting off its nose to spite its face.
Last edited by ORAC; 15th May 2018 at 08:59.
Locally jamming GPS is very easy,
They would also be covered by binding contracts with ESA/EU, and with ultimate reference to the ECJ.
You may be very sure that Galileo has been planned so that no one company or country can hold the project to ransom.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
They would also be covered by binding contracts with ESA/EU, and with ultimate reference to the ECJ.
Export regulations concerning the ability to supply the items under contract under EAR/ITAR/national approval is a standard contract Force Majeure clause.
Another lucrative enterprise for the lawyers.
And another Brexit Clusterf*ck!
Pontius Navigator,
Globally integrated but with customs and people movement barriers between us and our largest trading partner, in fact the WORLD's largest trading block. All those foreign companies who base their manufacturing in the UK and export 80% of production, over 50% to the EU, are going to face the issue of having to relocate inside that trading block, and guess what, they are the UK space industry as well.
Brexit, a trading and economic disaster!
Globally integrated but with customs and people movement barriers between us and our largest trading partner, in fact the WORLD's largest trading block. All those foreign companies who base their manufacturing in the UK and export 80% of production, over 50% to the EU, are going to face the issue of having to relocate inside that trading block, and guess what, they are the UK space industry as well.
Brexit, a trading and economic disaster!
I'm not at all convinced it is, it seems to be yet another deliberate attempt to adversely impact public opinion, almost certainly driven by the desire by the EU Commission to convince the populations of other EU member states that voting to leave the EU, and hence reduce the unelected power (not to mention the gravy train) of the commission, would not be a good idea. The timing of these scare stories seems deliberate - right now the EU has a (remote) possibility of a threat from the anti-EU faction in Italy, for example. There are also still some pretty strong anti-EU control sentiments being expressed by some Eastern European members, too.
The reality seems to be that this is almost certainly a non-issue. Either we'll be granted access to Galileo because we control some of the critical security related content, or we won't, and the EU and UK will do their own thing. The UK probably has greater choice, as we already have in place GPS accuracy augmentation systems, plus access to GPS P code for military requirements, thanks to the agreement we have had with the US for many years now. We could also choose to have our own system for not much more than we'd end up paying for Galileo if we chose to, I suspect, as SV costs are dropping and we already have the technical capability to build our own system.
The reality seems to be that this is almost certainly a non-issue. Either we'll be granted access to Galileo because we control some of the critical security related content, or we won't, and the EU and UK will do their own thing. The UK probably has greater choice, as we already have in place GPS accuracy augmentation systems, plus access to GPS P code for military requirements, thanks to the agreement we have had with the US for many years now. We could also choose to have our own system for not much more than we'd end up paying for Galileo if we chose to, I suspect, as SV costs are dropping and we already have the technical capability to build our own system.
It's worth noting that a dedicated UK system doesn't need to be worldwide.
We could copy the QZSS system developed by Japan, to improve availability and accuracy of the US GPS just over the UK. It would of course not be totally independent.
We could copy the QZSS system developed by Japan, to improve availability and accuracy of the US GPS just over the UK. It would of course not be totally independent.
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Galileo isn't independent - its controlled by the EU
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The EU have boosted the argument for our own system; what's the point in our paying billions to share a system that they may to choose to lock us out of, either now or at some point in the future, perhaps when we urgently need it?
They've also given a financial incentive to go it alone; not a single penny we pay towards Galileo will now go to a British worker or company. At least the spend on our own system would remain within the UK economy
They've also given a financial incentive to go it alone; not a single penny we pay towards Galileo will now go to a British worker or company. At least the spend on our own system would remain within the UK economy
Last edited by ShotOne; 15th May 2018 at 21:38.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.ft.com/content/bb6bae54-...1-e01af256df68
Britain looks to Australia for help on Galileo rival
The UK is aiming to launch the first tenders for a satellite navigation system to rival Europe’s €10bn Galileo project by the end of the year, with hopes rising that Australia could become a partner in the programme.
Britain is expected to signal its determination to press ahead with its own programme in discussions with EU negotiators next week, should Brussels continue to insist that the UK be barred from secure elements of Galileo.
Two Whitehall officials told the Financial Times that Australia, which last week announced plans for a National Space Agency, had indicated potential interest in a UK project. However, this was at a very early stage and there had not yet been any formal contact on the subject, several officials said. The Australian government had no immediate comment on whether it would participate in a UK system.
The moves come as Britain prepares to put funding behind its threat to withdraw from Galileo, even though its preferred option is to remain in the programme. “For industry to carry out any work on a UK system they will need contracts,” said one official. Industry and Whitehall officials said the government was hoping to launch invitations to tender for initial engineering and design work in the next few months, barring unforeseen delays.
Although proposals for a UK system were only announced last month, the government has secretly been weighing plans for an alternative to Galileo since 2016. Two feasibility studies were commissioned from industry, the most recent last autumn, looking at what the UK’s needs would be and whether British companies had the capabilities required. The latest study estimated that a UK system could be delivered for about £3.7bn and would create some 5,000 jobs.
This month, the government created a task force charged with developing options for a system with both civilian and military grade signals. “That would not have been done if the results of the study were not positive. There is potential to create growth,” said the official. “This idea [for a UK system] has not suddenly appeared out of nowhere.”.........
Britain looks to Australia for help on Galileo rival
The UK is aiming to launch the first tenders for a satellite navigation system to rival Europe’s €10bn Galileo project by the end of the year, with hopes rising that Australia could become a partner in the programme.
Britain is expected to signal its determination to press ahead with its own programme in discussions with EU negotiators next week, should Brussels continue to insist that the UK be barred from secure elements of Galileo.
Two Whitehall officials told the Financial Times that Australia, which last week announced plans for a National Space Agency, had indicated potential interest in a UK project. However, this was at a very early stage and there had not yet been any formal contact on the subject, several officials said. The Australian government had no immediate comment on whether it would participate in a UK system.
The moves come as Britain prepares to put funding behind its threat to withdraw from Galileo, even though its preferred option is to remain in the programme. “For industry to carry out any work on a UK system they will need contracts,” said one official. Industry and Whitehall officials said the government was hoping to launch invitations to tender for initial engineering and design work in the next few months, barring unforeseen delays.
Although proposals for a UK system were only announced last month, the government has secretly been weighing plans for an alternative to Galileo since 2016. Two feasibility studies were commissioned from industry, the most recent last autumn, looking at what the UK’s needs would be and whether British companies had the capabilities required. The latest study estimated that a UK system could be delivered for about £3.7bn and would create some 5,000 jobs.
This month, the government created a task force charged with developing options for a system with both civilian and military grade signals. “That would not have been done if the results of the study were not positive. There is potential to create growth,” said the official. “This idea [for a UK system] has not suddenly appeared out of nowhere.”.........
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"...put funding behind its threat to withdraw.." ? It's no threat to withdraw; the EU are kicking us out! Even if they were to back down, they could exclude us at any point. Pouring in more billions is now a total waste of money.
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Might be a blessing in disguise according to some that are in the project. The clocks have issues.....
UK has all the R&D knowledge and experience and the skills. Changing suppliers is going to add a new dimension for things that can go wrong.
The new cheap launch capability offered outside Europe will bring costs down along with new tech.
They reckoned it is quite likely that UK could have a functioning better system before the original project gets anywhere near full functionality (if it ever gets to the target due to the hydrogen mazzer clocks dropping like leaves.)
And funding is in doubt until everything is sorted out. And there is zero chance if it being complete with the current projected funding.
Its likely to turn into a very expensive tool for collecting road tax in central Europe.
UK has all the R&D knowledge and experience and the skills. Changing suppliers is going to add a new dimension for things that can go wrong.
The new cheap launch capability offered outside Europe will bring costs down along with new tech.
They reckoned it is quite likely that UK could have a functioning better system before the original project gets anywhere near full functionality (if it ever gets to the target due to the hydrogen mazzer clocks dropping like leaves.)
And funding is in doubt until everything is sorted out. And there is zero chance if it being complete with the current projected funding.
Its likely to turn into a very expensive tool for collecting road tax in central Europe.
Some rather contradictory messages here. 
Apparently we are upset to have left the Galileo project due to you-know-what, and yet it's not working anyway so why are we bothered?
The problems with some of the maser clocks are very old news, and fully diagnosed. Each satellite has four clocks, and only needs one for operation.
Back in the real world, the system is fully operational and is just awaiting the last few satellites to be sent up. I'm currently on holiday using Galileo for navigation and getting very accurate fixes from the open service.
As for using Galileo for road pricing, if the UK ever manages to get a similar service working, (with emphasis on the 'manages') it will of course be used for road pricing. That will be one of the justifications for the huge expenditure.
Apparently we are upset to have left the Galileo project due to you-know-what, and yet it's not working anyway so why are we bothered?
The problems with some of the maser clocks are very old news, and fully diagnosed. Each satellite has four clocks, and only needs one for operation.
Back in the real world, the system is fully operational and is just awaiting the last few satellites to be sent up. I'm currently on holiday using Galileo for navigation and getting very accurate fixes from the open service.
As for using Galileo for road pricing, if the UK ever manages to get a similar service working, (with emphasis on the 'manages') it will of course be used for road pricing. That will be one of the justifications for the huge expenditure.
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Each sat does have 4 clocks two hydrogen Mazzer and two iridium to get fancy stuff it needs a mazzer working. And they haven't worked out what's going wrong mainly because they can't get their hands on a failed unit, Its very current news still. Maybe you know more than guys working on the project.
Out of the 22 sats up there two are in the wrong orbit...… And sort of work but again they can't take part in the fancy stuff.
The ones that are left 3 are the test beds, IOV stas and are coming to the end of their life, and they are working perfectly but running out of fuel.
So out of that 22 there is 11 sats functioning that are mainstream and 4 in commissioning for launch . From that lot that are up there and working there is 6 which are on there second mazzer with no back up. if that one goes they are onto the iridium clocks which means the high precision signal is not possible any more.
So out of 22 there at 5 satellites which could be deemed 100% functioning fit for use with backup with a long term future. They need 30 of them up there for a complete functioning system. Its going to cost the Uk the same if they build their own system or pay into Galileo more than likely less because the UK won't have to pander to partners national interests.
And they will have full control of the system instead of a partner disagreeing with foreign policy and turning the signal off.
Anyway we shall see what happens. Can't see it completing myself unless its just pure political force and weeing money up the wall to make it work to not loose face.
Out of the 22 sats up there two are in the wrong orbit...… And sort of work but again they can't take part in the fancy stuff.
The ones that are left 3 are the test beds, IOV stas and are coming to the end of their life, and they are working perfectly but running out of fuel.
So out of that 22 there is 11 sats functioning that are mainstream and 4 in commissioning for launch . From that lot that are up there and working there is 6 which are on there second mazzer with no back up. if that one goes they are onto the iridium clocks which means the high precision signal is not possible any more.
So out of 22 there at 5 satellites which could be deemed 100% functioning fit for use with backup with a long term future. They need 30 of them up there for a complete functioning system. Its going to cost the Uk the same if they build their own system or pay into Galileo more than likely less because the UK won't have to pander to partners national interests.
And they will have full control of the system instead of a partner disagreeing with foreign policy and turning the signal off.
Anyway we shall see what happens. Can't see it completing myself unless its just pure political force and weeing money up the wall to make it work to not loose face.
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Central planning: always doing what would have been the right thing fifty years ago,
Maybe the UK should talk to Elon Musk and see if they can pay to have their clocks and transmitters added to his new Internet satellite constellation.