Civilians as Police air observers
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Civilians as Police air observers
Quite a few Police ASU's are looking into employing civilians to take up posts as air observers. At the moment my unit has left us short of an observer whilst it looks into the possibility. I would be interested in views from others on the subject.
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Civilians as observers is not a new thing Hampshire Police already have one. Suffolk Police recently advertised for two at there base in Wattisham, and Iam relaibly informed that they had a lot of applicants mainly ex military. A lot of other ASUs are looking into the possibility of recruiting civilians, also some are becoming totally independent Police ASUs with no back up from the large employer for Police flying. I am interested to find out which ASU you are from. At present I am looking at becoming a Civilian Air Observer when my time is up in military aviation. Perhaps I could fill in.
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Baldbloke ]</p>
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Baldbloke ]</p>
I think the point often missed here, including by some police forces, is that the primary role of a police ASU is to position a resource. That resource is one or two individuals with sufficient police experience to be able to make suitable judgement during sometimes rapidly developing situations. If you could position that resource by a high speed crane it would achieve the same end, it just happens that we have to fly to do it.
The decisions need to be made within the frame of reference that this is police work. A highly capable experienced ex-military loadmaster or similar isn't necessarily the first choice because one can learn nav and aircraft procedures much faster than one can accumulate a wealth of police experience. Admittedly there are some tasks which require less experience than others but this is about doing as much as possible with a relatively small number of people.
Far better surely to have an observer who might be a less than perfect navigator but who consistently makes a wise decision when faced with an iffy call-out request or who can think around all the wider implications of a situation. [The questions of powers of arrest for landing and locking up or appearing in court are relevant but in reality not often needed.]
Obviously there is a financial incentive to employing civilians; the day may come where a two observer crew has one of each but I personally think it would be ill advised.
The decisions need to be made within the frame of reference that this is police work. A highly capable experienced ex-military loadmaster or similar isn't necessarily the first choice because one can learn nav and aircraft procedures much faster than one can accumulate a wealth of police experience. Admittedly there are some tasks which require less experience than others but this is about doing as much as possible with a relatively small number of people.
Far better surely to have an observer who might be a less than perfect navigator but who consistently makes a wise decision when faced with an iffy call-out request or who can think around all the wider implications of a situation. [The questions of powers of arrest for landing and locking up or appearing in court are relevant but in reality not often needed.]
Obviously there is a financial incentive to employing civilians; the day may come where a two observer crew has one of each but I personally think it would be ill advised.
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Thanks for the replies, firstly I will cough to being a PC and stationed at Essex ASU. As far as us recruiting civies in the future, I haven't got a clue but who knows. I personally haven't got any problem with civies as Police air observers but I don't think it is something to rush into. I agree with droopy about the wealth of knowledge built up in a Police career and feel that it's not something you can learn on a course. Also, although we don't land and deal with stuff too often, I have been in that situation and firmly beleive that if a civie observer had to do it he(she) should at least be a Special Cons for the extra back up that gives. As far as ex military observers are concerned, all our Pilots are and are just as good and police minded as our observers. I think a mixed crew ie. one police one civie is the only way to do it, if at all.
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I couldnt agree more, allthough Iam military aircrew I have had lots of experience working with the police on numerous jobs. Surely the wealth of knowledge that I have gained whilst in the mob would be a benefit rather than a hinderence. I agree that the depth of knowledge and experience that a PC can provide is well founded, but surely if the crew of the aircraft work well together and get a good end result then that is what counts not if he is a civilian or a police observer thats what we in the mob call CRM crew resource management. And you never know the civilian could even teach you how to spell!! only joking.
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Arn't there a lot of pitfalls employing Civvys in the Police force, especially on this sort of active action, what happens to civvy boy or girl if evrything goes quiet, are they going to be covered as would the actual Pilot and Policeman?
Or is this the way of new Labour, Civvy Policemen and Women, that will be good for the Labour/ Unions relationship's, wont it! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Or is this the way of new Labour, Civvy Policemen and Women, that will be good for the Labour/ Unions relationship's, wont it! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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I am a civy pilot who flies for various ASUs; this topic is often discussed.
IMHO a major drawback to civy observers is that they may be less easily accepted by the bobbies on the ground. ASUs have a major selling job to do within each Police Force: there could well be resistance and lack of cooperation if the "eye in the sky" had no bobbies in it.
I agree that it would be even more difficult if both observers were non-police.
Incidentally, a recent thread on the Rotorheads forum suggests that Police Officers are not well provided for, in the event of an injury accident. A recent case was discussed that suggested they were considered as passenegers (by the legal eagles). As such International Conventions (Warsaw I believe) seriously limit the maximum compensation that they can claim.
IMHO a major drawback to civy observers is that they may be less easily accepted by the bobbies on the ground. ASUs have a major selling job to do within each Police Force: there could well be resistance and lack of cooperation if the "eye in the sky" had no bobbies in it.
I agree that it would be even more difficult if both observers were non-police.
Incidentally, a recent thread on the Rotorheads forum suggests that Police Officers are not well provided for, in the event of an injury accident. A recent case was discussed that suggested they were considered as passenegers (by the legal eagles). As such International Conventions (Warsaw I believe) seriously limit the maximum compensation that they can claim.
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Hey - If anyone has got any contacts and/or info on which forces would employ civy observers - would you please e-mail me! have been investigating this line of work for sometime. have a fixedwing PPL, which gives basic nav etc
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I think that civillians would probably make far better observers than police officers in actual fact. Police officers are just that....police officers. Maybe Jonah is looking over his shoulder as the dreaded civillianisation approaches him. No good fightin it, you will be out of a job before too long.
There is a far greater skill base in the civillian world from ex military guys, so why not use it and let the police officers get back to police work.
There is a far greater skill base in the civillian world from ex military guys, so why not use it and let the police officers get back to police work.
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I can only speak for our own ASU but when on task they have to use a dedicated short range radio channel which is not available to Control Room Staff. This means that the Police officers on board have to control the deployment of the officers in attendance. On that basis it is unlikely that Police observers will go. It may be, however, that there is one civilian observer and one Police one.
nitesun :
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "Police officers are just that - police officers."
The whole point of any resource deployed by a police service, especially one as expensive as an ASU, is that it should be deployed effectively. Using a trained police officer as the observer makes sense when the wider implications of any incident are taken into account - for example the evidence gathering aspect, the legal aspect, and so on.
While there's no doubting you can train up civilians to do that, why not use experienced police officers who'll need the same training on the aircraft operation aspect and not need the training on the other aspects ?
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "Police officers are just that - police officers."
The whole point of any resource deployed by a police service, especially one as expensive as an ASU, is that it should be deployed effectively. Using a trained police officer as the observer makes sense when the wider implications of any incident are taken into account - for example the evidence gathering aspect, the legal aspect, and so on.
While there's no doubting you can train up civilians to do that, why not use experienced police officers who'll need the same training on the aircraft operation aspect and not need the training on the other aspects ?
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The primary role of the observer in police operations is to operate the aircraft role equipment. A task that can be easily carried out by a civilian. I do not believe that there is a need for 'evidence gathering' that requires a police officer 'hands on'. Operating a VCR or taking evidential photographs does not demand a police officer. A civillian can submit an evidential statement just the same. To me its a case of 'horses for courses' lets have specialist aviation units crewed with specialists, and as I have said before, this will enable the police officers to return to police duties where they are needed. I am not saying that police officers do'nt do a reasonable job as aircrew, but the question is can they justify continuing in the role when a trained military observer could perform the role as well, if not better, and for less money. There are a lot of police observers out there who are probably thinking the same thing, and are trying to ward off the inevitable!!
Nitesun - I really don't think you're looking at the nature of the post of observer as a whole; this isn't really about equipment operation. Of course there are some who could operate the equipment just as well if not better but it's not that simple. One of the key skills of a police observer is to look at a developing job and decide whether there is an air support opportunity in it and to have sound reasons for turning down certain tasks; if we were to turn out to every request we'd soon go bust and that decision-making has to have a foundation in a wide range of police experience. I'd estimate that the average ASU turns out to about 20%-30% of the total job requests; where could you get the knowledge to manage the resource other than with police experience?
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Droopy - I am reliably told that Suffolk ASU have now taken on 2 civillians as full time air observers. It would therefore appear that the precedent has been set. Obviously in the eyes of Suffolk police the crucial decision making process that you refer to can just as easily be made by a civillian with no police experience to back it up!! I would suggest that other units will closely monitor Suffolk now and be looking to follow suit.
Indeed; many ASUs are not available 24hrs and a number of other examples I could mention; just because a force opts for a decision based on cost it doesn't mean it's best value service provision.
Don't think I'm arrogantly saying "never ever"; there may be a way forward with the crew of one officer and one civilian with the officer as the "tactical commander" and the civilian as the "systems operator", but there are some wider points to consider if we accept there needs to be at least one officer on board; the pool to cover sickness etc is much reduced, the crew experience level [and, I believe, implicit quality of judgement] is reduced. If, however, we accept that the primary role of the ASU is to act exactly as directed by the ground users then that opens up a whole new frame of reference in which one can easily staff the unit with personnel without hands-on experience as police officers. Those individuals would eventually accrue the experience to make astute police decisions but my central argument is that this process would take a lot longer at public expense than it takes the average police officer to learn the nav and systems skills. If we're talking about best overall value then surely the latter is the most desirable?
There is a very analogous argument about the role of the unit manager. Several ASUs have engaged their recently retired police officer Unit Executive Officer as the civilian UEO, and they might typically expect to get 5-10 years of good service from that individual. This doesn't mean however that you can civilianise all UEO posts because an ASU is an integrated police unit needing management with an intimate knowledge of Force structure [and Force politics!], not a stand-alone air transport undertaking. Those units with a civilian UEO are going to find it less easy to fill that post when their ex police officer eventually retires.
Don't think I'm arrogantly saying "never ever"; there may be a way forward with the crew of one officer and one civilian with the officer as the "tactical commander" and the civilian as the "systems operator", but there are some wider points to consider if we accept there needs to be at least one officer on board; the pool to cover sickness etc is much reduced, the crew experience level [and, I believe, implicit quality of judgement] is reduced. If, however, we accept that the primary role of the ASU is to act exactly as directed by the ground users then that opens up a whole new frame of reference in which one can easily staff the unit with personnel without hands-on experience as police officers. Those individuals would eventually accrue the experience to make astute police decisions but my central argument is that this process would take a lot longer at public expense than it takes the average police officer to learn the nav and systems skills. If we're talking about best overall value then surely the latter is the most desirable?
There is a very analogous argument about the role of the unit manager. Several ASUs have engaged their recently retired police officer Unit Executive Officer as the civilian UEO, and they might typically expect to get 5-10 years of good service from that individual. This doesn't mean however that you can civilianise all UEO posts because an ASU is an integrated police unit needing management with an intimate knowledge of Force structure [and Force politics!], not a stand-alone air transport undertaking. Those units with a civilian UEO are going to find it less easy to fill that post when their ex police officer eventually retires.
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I am a retired U.S. law enforcement officer/pilot and would like to pass on my thoughts based on police aviation in the U.S. I realize that things are probably quite different in the U.K.
In most cases in the U.S. a police aircraft is considered another police vehicle. The mission is the same, the vehicle is different.
Keeping that concept in mind, the observers are officers, not civilians.
Most police aviation in the U.S. is in support of patrol functions, i.e. providing air support to marked patrol cars. From the ground officers perspective it is imperative that the observer he is talking to be an officer.
An officer/observer has the street experience to make independent observations of criminal activity on the ground, i.e. the policeman's "sixth sense."
Other missions in the U.S. involve covert surveillance of drug violators and other suspects. Another mission is marijuana detection flights. This requires an officer because he/she must obtain a court issued search warrant to make a search/seizure of the observed marijuana. The observer will also be required to testify in court.
Just prior to my retirement in 1992, my old agency in California hired some civilian pilots to supplement the existing police pilots. This actually worked out OK, as the observers were still officers.
I just wanted to share some ideas based on my experience in California, with no intentions of providing discouragement of pursuing careers as civilian observers in the U.K.
Good luck,
In most cases in the U.S. a police aircraft is considered another police vehicle. The mission is the same, the vehicle is different.
Keeping that concept in mind, the observers are officers, not civilians.
Most police aviation in the U.S. is in support of patrol functions, i.e. providing air support to marked patrol cars. From the ground officers perspective it is imperative that the observer he is talking to be an officer.
An officer/observer has the street experience to make independent observations of criminal activity on the ground, i.e. the policeman's "sixth sense."
Other missions in the U.S. involve covert surveillance of drug violators and other suspects. Another mission is marijuana detection flights. This requires an officer because he/she must obtain a court issued search warrant to make a search/seizure of the observed marijuana. The observer will also be required to testify in court.
Just prior to my retirement in 1992, my old agency in California hired some civilian pilots to supplement the existing police pilots. This actually worked out OK, as the observers were still officers.
I just wanted to share some ideas based on my experience in California, with no intentions of providing discouragement of pursuing careers as civilian observers in the U.K.
Good luck,
I wonder if I could offer a subtly different view on this.
My background is largely in flight test where I have often flown as a civilian observer with military pilots, not a dissimilar position to a civilian police observer. We weren't going to war, just doing a professional job for which I was trained (often at military establishments) and could work effectively with my pilot. The advantage of civilian FTOs in a military flight test environment is specialism and continuity - I was generally in post much longer than my uniformed driver, and wasn't distracted by all sorts of purely military issues that were a necessity of service life.
I'd suggest than in a fixed wing police aircraft, the same applies. A civilian observer can be a specialist, trained in the job, and hopefully able to stay in post for a long time and become very good at it. They can be outside whatever are the police equivalents of parades and secondary duties, and just keep going - probably well after the police mandatory retirement age too!. In my experience, if everybody has the same boss and are treated similarly in terms of pay and conditions they show the same dedication - civilian or uniform.
However, in a rotary wing aircraft, presumably there are occasions where powers of arrest, police training in dealing with suspects, etc. are demanded of the observer. In that case, I can't see any option other than to have a uniformed policeman in that seat. This is similar to the fact that I could drop bombs from a Jaguar on the range, but would never be sent to war.
But at risk of using a Blairism, perhaps there's a "third way" that could be borrowed from the RAF. The RAF employs a reasonable number of instructors (in AEF for example) who are civilians, but a conditions of the post is that they become reservists, and they go to work in uniform. Could you employ civilians, train and employ them as I suggested above, but make a condition of employment that they become special constables?, which gets around all sorts of legal and insurance problems.
G
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]</p>
My background is largely in flight test where I have often flown as a civilian observer with military pilots, not a dissimilar position to a civilian police observer. We weren't going to war, just doing a professional job for which I was trained (often at military establishments) and could work effectively with my pilot. The advantage of civilian FTOs in a military flight test environment is specialism and continuity - I was generally in post much longer than my uniformed driver, and wasn't distracted by all sorts of purely military issues that were a necessity of service life.
I'd suggest than in a fixed wing police aircraft, the same applies. A civilian observer can be a specialist, trained in the job, and hopefully able to stay in post for a long time and become very good at it. They can be outside whatever are the police equivalents of parades and secondary duties, and just keep going - probably well after the police mandatory retirement age too!. In my experience, if everybody has the same boss and are treated similarly in terms of pay and conditions they show the same dedication - civilian or uniform.
However, in a rotary wing aircraft, presumably there are occasions where powers of arrest, police training in dealing with suspects, etc. are demanded of the observer. In that case, I can't see any option other than to have a uniformed policeman in that seat. This is similar to the fact that I could drop bombs from a Jaguar on the range, but would never be sent to war.
But at risk of using a Blairism, perhaps there's a "third way" that could be borrowed from the RAF. The RAF employs a reasonable number of instructors (in AEF for example) who are civilians, but a conditions of the post is that they become reservists, and they go to work in uniform. Could you employ civilians, train and employ them as I suggested above, but make a condition of employment that they become special constables?, which gets around all sorts of legal and insurance problems.
G
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]</p>
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Well nice to see that you are interested in the topic. Nitesun. I gather by your replies you are military aircrew getting close to retiring and after a civie observer job. That thought must come from being a suspicious police officer, something that you get from police experience. As for Suffolk, they have only just got civilian observers and so who knows what will happen. From memory, I think both have a police background, ie, both have worked for Suffolk Police in the past. As far as me being worried about going back to the street, you couldn't be further from the truth. Plus the fact that I've only got 6 yrs to go and wouldn't mind a civie observer job !!.
I would like to add that I've got nothing against civilian observers at all and anyway, what makes you think ex-military personnel are the right people for the job.
I would like to add that I've got nothing against civilian observers at all and anyway, what makes you think ex-military personnel are the right people for the job.
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Hmmmm - quite emotive at times some of these messages so here's a few more thoughts for you all to chew over !
PAY : Would the role of a civillian observer attract the same rate as a Police Officer of, say 8 years experience - NO ! - so this would be a saving on the Annual wage bill for the Police Force concerned...
BUT : It seems that the majority of the "Pro" civvie observer regime concede that extra training in "Police issues" would be needed, which would then ADD to the cost and could even eat up those savings, especially when coupled with some of the comments below ....
One suggestion was to have "Special Constables" as civillian Air Observers and this (to my limited way of thinking) seems to contradict earlier suggestions that the Police Observer could be released to "Police the Streets"
Think about the cost implications of that :
1. You have to SELECT, TRAIN and EQUIP a civillian to be an observer AND a Special Constable ( £25K - £30K just to do this ? )
2. You then have to RE-EQUIP a qualified Police Observer for "The Streets" and RE-TRAIN him in the variety of endlessly changing facets of administrative work and procedures, that go hand in hand with "Policing the Streets"
So - How about this as a suggestion : IF IT AIN'T BROKE - DON'T FIX IT ! Leave the Police Observer where he is - doing an EXCELLENT job ( not just a "fairly good" job as mentioned by someone earlier ) and why not recruit more ex-military chaps as Special Constables - or even as Regular Officers - where they can then get their Policing experience and "sixth sense" which will stand them in good stead for a post as a Police Observer in a few years time !
Then there are questions of Trade Union involvement with civillian staff, refreshment break entitlements, and replacement staff for sickness / annual leave / maternity leave etc etc which I won't go into at this stage.
Hope this all provokes more healthy thinking on the subject :-) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
PAY : Would the role of a civillian observer attract the same rate as a Police Officer of, say 8 years experience - NO ! - so this would be a saving on the Annual wage bill for the Police Force concerned...
BUT : It seems that the majority of the "Pro" civvie observer regime concede that extra training in "Police issues" would be needed, which would then ADD to the cost and could even eat up those savings, especially when coupled with some of the comments below ....
One suggestion was to have "Special Constables" as civillian Air Observers and this (to my limited way of thinking) seems to contradict earlier suggestions that the Police Observer could be released to "Police the Streets"
Think about the cost implications of that :
1. You have to SELECT, TRAIN and EQUIP a civillian to be an observer AND a Special Constable ( £25K - £30K just to do this ? )
2. You then have to RE-EQUIP a qualified Police Observer for "The Streets" and RE-TRAIN him in the variety of endlessly changing facets of administrative work and procedures, that go hand in hand with "Policing the Streets"
So - How about this as a suggestion : IF IT AIN'T BROKE - DON'T FIX IT ! Leave the Police Observer where he is - doing an EXCELLENT job ( not just a "fairly good" job as mentioned by someone earlier ) and why not recruit more ex-military chaps as Special Constables - or even as Regular Officers - where they can then get their Policing experience and "sixth sense" which will stand them in good stead for a post as a Police Observer in a few years time !
Then there are questions of Trade Union involvement with civillian staff, refreshment break entitlements, and replacement staff for sickness / annual leave / maternity leave etc etc which I won't go into at this stage.
Hope this all provokes more healthy thinking on the subject :-) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">