Civilians as Police air observers
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Retirement home..
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Police observers come ready trained and experienced in many areas, most of them essential for best use of the aircraft. They have a unique perspective of the ground situation and the intricacies of police organisation and comms. They also need the authority and confidence to use the cuffs and the baton where necessary. (They have also walked the beat with some of the people on the ground).
No matter what anyone says, the use of civvy observers is a cost-cutting measure! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Skycop ]</p>
No matter what anyone says, the use of civvy observers is a cost-cutting measure! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Skycop ]</p>
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We seem to be split into two groups:
The Police Observers (Against Civilianisation)...Wonder Why???
The Military / Ex Military (For Civilianisation)..cos they want a job!!
Any comments welcomed from someone who doesnt fall into one of the above categories. Thats probably the only way we will get an unbiased opinion. You know my views, there are not enough policemen on the streets, so move over chaps!!!
The Police Observers (Against Civilianisation)...Wonder Why???
The Military / Ex Military (For Civilianisation)..cos they want a job!!
Any comments welcomed from someone who doesnt fall into one of the above categories. Thats probably the only way we will get an unbiased opinion. You know my views, there are not enough policemen on the streets, so move over chaps!!!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skycop, Absolutely!!
You qualify.
I gather you are against civilianisation, so please tell me your reasons...
Interesting that you use the display name 'Skycop' when you are a civillian pilot.
You qualify.
I gather you are against civilianisation, so please tell me your reasons...
Interesting that you use the display name 'Skycop' when you are a civillian pilot.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Retirement home..
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nitesun,
Just look back to my post of 9 Jan. That's it in a nutshell.
Perhaps I'll change my username to Skycopnot. BTW why do you use nitesun when you are not a Nightsun? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Just look back to my post of 9 Jan. That's it in a nutshell.
Perhaps I'll change my username to Skycopnot. BTW why do you use nitesun when you are not a Nightsun? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well now chaps aren't we getting personal. Nitesun old chap, are you looking to becoming an observer when you leave the military ?, because after checking your various replies, you haven't actually mentioned it as being a plan for the future.Your attitude could make you a very interesting person to work with. You actually remind me of a certain pilot I know....
I wonder how the Suffolk ASU civies are getting on, it would be nice to hear from one of you two. Let us know what its like being stuck in the middle of this discussion.You could even give yourself the user name of "little nitesun" !!!
I wonder how the Suffolk ASU civies are getting on, it would be nice to hear from one of you two. Let us know what its like being stuck in the middle of this discussion.You could even give yourself the user name of "little nitesun" !!!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JonahUK,
Could you post an email or drop me a line at [email protected] as I have a few questions to ask of an active air observer?
(Ones I rather not discuss here!)
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Could you post an email or drop me a line at [email protected] as I have a few questions to ask of an active air observer?
(Ones I rather not discuss here!)
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am another 'impartial' civilian pilot who works for the police. You can feel free to categorise me as against civilian observers.
The reasons:
Observers are not just operators of role equipment on the aircraft. They make important operational decisions and often have to take control of operational situations. This is not something that a civilian observer will ever be able, or asked to do and IMHO it is not something that a recently trained special constable would be able to do either. There are situations where the aircraft may be called upon to land, and the observers will be required to carry out their function as policemen. There is no way that we can expect civilian observers to do that either. Part of our success is purely down to the experience of the observers as police officers on the ground in their previous appointments. There are some behavioural traits shown by people seen on the ground which, when noticed by police observers in the air can result in successful arrests. These traits wouldn't be picked up by civilian (and I include ex-military )observers. The camera operator is more than a cctv operator. Other aspects of the job have been touched upon already by other contributors. We do rely on the respect and trust of officers on the ground to enable us to carry out our work in the air. When it is a dark and stormy night, there is no moon and we are guiding a cheesed off dog man to the fifth compost heap in a row, through a grotty damp wood. The reason he is happy to follow our instructions is because it is a fellow police officer up there telling him to plod on and not 'some civvy'. I think that we can always learn something from our US colleagues, they have been operating police helicopters for a lot longer than we have. They do not believe in spending money where it is not necessary and they think that police air observers should always be policemen (however a lot of them feel that police pilots should also be policemen and I would want to take issue with that, from a purely self interest point of view, you understand!). We have partial civilianisation of Police air suport, pilots and engineers. Total civilianisation might save money, but it would reduce our operational effectiveness.
The reasons:
Observers are not just operators of role equipment on the aircraft. They make important operational decisions and often have to take control of operational situations. This is not something that a civilian observer will ever be able, or asked to do and IMHO it is not something that a recently trained special constable would be able to do either. There are situations where the aircraft may be called upon to land, and the observers will be required to carry out their function as policemen. There is no way that we can expect civilian observers to do that either. Part of our success is purely down to the experience of the observers as police officers on the ground in their previous appointments. There are some behavioural traits shown by people seen on the ground which, when noticed by police observers in the air can result in successful arrests. These traits wouldn't be picked up by civilian (and I include ex-military )observers. The camera operator is more than a cctv operator. Other aspects of the job have been touched upon already by other contributors. We do rely on the respect and trust of officers on the ground to enable us to carry out our work in the air. When it is a dark and stormy night, there is no moon and we are guiding a cheesed off dog man to the fifth compost heap in a row, through a grotty damp wood. The reason he is happy to follow our instructions is because it is a fellow police officer up there telling him to plod on and not 'some civvy'. I think that we can always learn something from our US colleagues, they have been operating police helicopters for a lot longer than we have. They do not believe in spending money where it is not necessary and they think that police air observers should always be policemen (however a lot of them feel that police pilots should also be policemen and I would want to take issue with that, from a purely self interest point of view, you understand!). We have partial civilianisation of Police air suport, pilots and engineers. Total civilianisation might save money, but it would reduce our operational effectiveness.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitesun:
I'm a civy pilot and having flown police ops for about a year now its fairly clear that the role of the observer can only be done by someone who has had a lot of experience on the streets. Operating the role equipment is only one part (and a small one at that). Any pilot worth his salt will know the airspace/hazards and can navigate to within a reasonable distance of the job. Knowing what to look for, controlling the situation on the ground and just generally being ahead of the game is one of the most important aspects. Something thats difficult to teach - it only comes with experience. Maybe a retired policeman, but a policeman just the same.
I'm a civy pilot and having flown police ops for about a year now its fairly clear that the role of the observer can only be done by someone who has had a lot of experience on the streets. Operating the role equipment is only one part (and a small one at that). Any pilot worth his salt will know the airspace/hazards and can navigate to within a reasonable distance of the job. Knowing what to look for, controlling the situation on the ground and just generally being ahead of the game is one of the most important aspects. Something thats difficult to teach - it only comes with experience. Maybe a retired policeman, but a policeman just the same.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitesun:
I'm a civy pilot and having flown police ops for about a year now its fairly clear that the role of the observer can only be done by someone who has had a lot of experience on the streets. Operating the role equipment is only one part (and a small one at that). Any pilot worth his salt will know the airspace/hazards and can navigate to within a reasonable distance of the job. Knowing what to look for, controlling the situation on the ground and just generally being ahead of the game is one of the most important aspects. Something thats difficult to teach - it only comes with experience. Maybe a retired policeman, but a policeman just the same.
I'm a civy pilot and having flown police ops for about a year now its fairly clear that the role of the observer can only be done by someone who has had a lot of experience on the streets. Operating the role equipment is only one part (and a small one at that). Any pilot worth his salt will know the airspace/hazards and can navigate to within a reasonable distance of the job. Knowing what to look for, controlling the situation on the ground and just generally being ahead of the game is one of the most important aspects. Something thats difficult to teach - it only comes with experience. Maybe a retired policeman, but a policeman just the same.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take on board all of your valid comments on this topic, but the fact surely remains that when the police look at air support as a whole, faced with severe budget restraints, they will see a number of experienced police officers ( presumeably attracting a salary that reflects that experience)If cuts are needed, where are they going to make those cuts? Not on the equipment, because technology is the way forward. They will make their cuts on the crew - why pay a top price policeman when you can save money by employing a civillian for half the money. Yes, I dare say that the police officers are all required to make important decisions, but military personnel have been in that ball game for some considerable time. Police experience is an area where I conceed that a civillian falls foul, but do you honestly think that this will count for much when savings need to be made?. .I would be interested in hearing the views of a civillian observer, I am told that there are some out there, I still believe that within the next two years police air support will become 75% civillianised. I know that from the posts on this subject that this is an emotive topic, but be assured it WILL happen, and to answer Jonah, No I do not want a job!!!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Zorab UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems there are a lot of twitched Police Obs out there who believe only their skills & experience are able to fulfil the task? . .How about a fresh pair of trained (ex-military, possibly) eyes that have been "Observing" and from the air, for 15+ years. Add to that a short-term renewable contract and they'll be only too pleased to do the best job they can rather than sit on their haunches, safe in their pay packet however well (or not) they actually perform?. .For a trained, ex-military crewman to make the transition to Police Obs does not and should not cost the sorts of figures banded about here.
You can't make a silk urse out of a sow's ear! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
You can't make a silk urse out of a sow's ear! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitesun / Timbuktoo, I think the point that is being missed is that the "highly paid" (not)highly experienced policeman is in the best postion in the helicopter. Using his experience to direct ops on the ground. Nobody is denying that ex-mil guys/girls can be trained to operate the equipment, they can be taught the do's and dont's of evidence. But I agree, air support is an expensive operation and will be axed if arrest rates plummet, its not the equipment that gets the arrests - its the experienced man in the machine.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Timbuktoo - At last someone that shares my views!!. .I agree wholeheartedly.
Semirigidrotor - Sorry mate, but police experience does not lead to arrests in police air ops, its down to the technology available on the aircraft. It does'nt take a policeman with umpteen years of experience to 2nd guess which way a villain will run and hide, you find him because the technology is far too efficient for him to escape. That, coupled with a bit of good fortune. I don't accept the 'years of experience' line, that is just used by the 'twitched' police observers to justify their jobs. If you put an ex military observer into a search situation, I feel sure that he could carry out the same search pattern as the police observer, and get the result. Police experience does not come into it.
Semirigidrotor - Sorry mate, but police experience does not lead to arrests in police air ops, its down to the technology available on the aircraft. It does'nt take a policeman with umpteen years of experience to 2nd guess which way a villain will run and hide, you find him because the technology is far too efficient for him to escape. That, coupled with a bit of good fortune. I don't accept the 'years of experience' line, that is just used by the 'twitched' police observers to justify their jobs. If you put an ex military observer into a search situation, I feel sure that he could carry out the same search pattern as the police observer, and get the result. Police experience does not come into it.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Retirement home..
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitesun,
Your last highly opinionated post shows a lack of understanding of the job.
Perhaps you would care to outline your experience in police operations so that your comments can be put in perspective.
Your last highly opinionated post shows a lack of understanding of the job.
Perhaps you would care to outline your experience in police operations so that your comments can be put in perspective.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitesun,
While you're busy posting your C.V. to prove your credibility to pass comment on this issue, would you also be so kind as to explain where you get some of your beliefs from - Are they based on any fact or facts ? Are they pure guesswork without any REAL consideration of the consequences? or are they literally plucked out of the air to stir up a good "debate" ?
Specifically I'm talking about your comment : "I still believe that within the next two years police air support will become 75% civillianised"
Let's just consider what you have said and one or two ( but nowhere near all ) of the implications of this -
Take a fairly typical ASU with, say 12 POLICE observers and no CIVILLIAN observers. The 12 obs will generally range in their experience within the unit from newly appointed to maybe 7 years or so for the "old hands", with a rolling program of new observers joining as the more experienced leave ( for whatever reason ).
To fulfill your "belief" this ASU will have to remove NINE ( 75% ) of the current POLICE OBSERVERS within TWO YEARS, during which time it must advertise for, select ( Aptitude tests, flight tests, medicals, interviews etc ) and then fully equip and TRAIN the "new" CIVILLIAN observers to take over the role.
This then leaves just 3 POLICE Observers - who are the 3 LEAST EXPERIENCED on the unit, to "supervise" 9 CIVILLIAN observers with NO EXPERIENCE.
I would suggest that this is a recipe for disaster and just plain dangerous, with flight safety issues and the overall efficiency of the unit to be considered.
Logistically it would be impossible to manage the unit ( if it were providing 24 hour cover as more and more ASU's appear to be these days ) and always have 1 POLICE observer and 1 CIVILLIAN observer crewed together.. .( Unless the highly paid Policeman never took Annual Leave or went sick ! )
Due to the inexperience of the the newly re-formed unit, it follows that the success rate would be lower and my "belief" - based on my own experiences as A POLICE observer are that ultimately this could lead to the withdrawal of Air Support by the Police Authority concerned.
I "believe" that every ASU should be looking at cost effectiveness, and at ways of IMPROVING the service it offers by investing in new technology, training, and employing the BEST people for the job. I have not seen ANYWHERE in this topic, anything that says a civillian would do a BETTER job than a Police observer !
I'm not, as you may think, totally against partial civillianisation, but I would certainly object to the 75% you have put forward !
Finally may I add that I would have my own personal reservations about working alongside anyone - Police or Civilian - that could come up with such a hair-brained idea without considering the "wider picture". Efficiency and cost effectiveness are very important issues, but when I'm "up there" Flight Safety is top of the list ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
While you're busy posting your C.V. to prove your credibility to pass comment on this issue, would you also be so kind as to explain where you get some of your beliefs from - Are they based on any fact or facts ? Are they pure guesswork without any REAL consideration of the consequences? or are they literally plucked out of the air to stir up a good "debate" ?
Specifically I'm talking about your comment : "I still believe that within the next two years police air support will become 75% civillianised"
Let's just consider what you have said and one or two ( but nowhere near all ) of the implications of this -
Take a fairly typical ASU with, say 12 POLICE observers and no CIVILLIAN observers. The 12 obs will generally range in their experience within the unit from newly appointed to maybe 7 years or so for the "old hands", with a rolling program of new observers joining as the more experienced leave ( for whatever reason ).
To fulfill your "belief" this ASU will have to remove NINE ( 75% ) of the current POLICE OBSERVERS within TWO YEARS, during which time it must advertise for, select ( Aptitude tests, flight tests, medicals, interviews etc ) and then fully equip and TRAIN the "new" CIVILLIAN observers to take over the role.
This then leaves just 3 POLICE Observers - who are the 3 LEAST EXPERIENCED on the unit, to "supervise" 9 CIVILLIAN observers with NO EXPERIENCE.
I would suggest that this is a recipe for disaster and just plain dangerous, with flight safety issues and the overall efficiency of the unit to be considered.
Logistically it would be impossible to manage the unit ( if it were providing 24 hour cover as more and more ASU's appear to be these days ) and always have 1 POLICE observer and 1 CIVILLIAN observer crewed together.. .( Unless the highly paid Policeman never took Annual Leave or went sick ! )
Due to the inexperience of the the newly re-formed unit, it follows that the success rate would be lower and my "belief" - based on my own experiences as A POLICE observer are that ultimately this could lead to the withdrawal of Air Support by the Police Authority concerned.
I "believe" that every ASU should be looking at cost effectiveness, and at ways of IMPROVING the service it offers by investing in new technology, training, and employing the BEST people for the job. I have not seen ANYWHERE in this topic, anything that says a civillian would do a BETTER job than a Police observer !
I'm not, as you may think, totally against partial civillianisation, but I would certainly object to the 75% you have put forward !
Finally may I add that I would have my own personal reservations about working alongside anyone - Police or Civilian - that could come up with such a hair-brained idea without considering the "wider picture". Efficiency and cost effectiveness are very important issues, but when I'm "up there" Flight Safety is top of the list ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: err not tellin anymore
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think anyone has touched on this yet but here goes anyway...
It seems to me that the major argument against civvys observers is the lack of "tactical" police knowledge, i.e who to deploy where and when to make the arrest in the safest and most efficient manner.
Well would it come as a shock to you if I told you that the vast majority of Communication Controllers in my force are civillians, it is they who answer the 999 calls, decide the immediate priorities, allocate the suitable Police Officer, communicate with said officer via radio (or mobile phone if more appropriate) whilst also operating three different computer systems to document the actions taken, log the incidents and enable the commanders throughout the force to view the developing incident via their computer.
would these civillians not provide the ideal candidates for the observers role.
The only function they could not do would be to actually arrest someone and I would be very wary of making them Specials just to give them powers of arrest. There are all sorts of legislative reasons not to do this, not least the fact that Specials aren't paid so if you take the leap and pay the special to do his day job are you not then introducing a two tier police service?
just my thoughts,. .Gash.
It seems to me that the major argument against civvys observers is the lack of "tactical" police knowledge, i.e who to deploy where and when to make the arrest in the safest and most efficient manner.
Well would it come as a shock to you if I told you that the vast majority of Communication Controllers in my force are civillians, it is they who answer the 999 calls, decide the immediate priorities, allocate the suitable Police Officer, communicate with said officer via radio (or mobile phone if more appropriate) whilst also operating three different computer systems to document the actions taken, log the incidents and enable the commanders throughout the force to view the developing incident via their computer.
would these civillians not provide the ideal candidates for the observers role.
The only function they could not do would be to actually arrest someone and I would be very wary of making them Specials just to give them powers of arrest. There are all sorts of legislative reasons not to do this, not least the fact that Specials aren't paid so if you take the leap and pay the special to do his day job are you not then introducing a two tier police service?
just my thoughts,. .Gash.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gash.. .Don't get me started on this one. The majority of coms officers in my force are also civilians. Apart from a small minority the remainder are only good at answering the phone and then allocating the nearest available unit. As far as tasking officers is concerned they wouldn't have a clue. Most are covering areas they don't know and only rely on the command and control computer for information. We have contacted our information room on numerous occasions to give them the reason for a job decline and they have trouble passing on a simple message. It's got to such a problem that we are now qualified to put free text on an incident ourselves so that a ground unit has the full reason why we would not be attending. Not that all this is the individuals fault, it's just that they don't receive the right training in the first place.My sergeant has been to training sessions with them and still we have problems. No doubt this is a problem suffered by other forces. I really don't think you could use this as a suitable argument for full civilianisation of an ASU.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gash,
I'm sure you are one of those in the information room who can allocate resources and control an incident, sadly many cannot. I work for a 3 force consortium and they are consistent in either not giving out information or worse misinformation to the boys/girls on the beat. It is often the air supports first task on arrival to sort out the mess on the ground! Its a classic case of civilianisation sounding good in principle, but in practise not working. Again I say it takes an experienced policeman (preferably with local knowledge) to do - dare I say it - Police work.
I'm sure you are one of those in the information room who can allocate resources and control an incident, sadly many cannot. I work for a 3 force consortium and they are consistent in either not giving out information or worse misinformation to the boys/girls on the beat. It is often the air supports first task on arrival to sort out the mess on the ground! Its a classic case of civilianisation sounding good in principle, but in practise not working. Again I say it takes an experienced policeman (preferably with local knowledge) to do - dare I say it - Police work.