English Language Tests Are Inadequate
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English Language Tests Are Inadequate
Reported by Lancaster University study which comments that flightdeck communication implicated in several recent accidents?
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....several recent accidents?
And, some native English speakers (and perhaps their own personal stuck-up attitudes) should realise that many foreign airline crew members command of the English language is many times better than native English speakers command of any other...
Further, English is not the only ICAO approved language.
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I work with pilots and cabin crew of several nationalities who all speak English.
Their command of the language varies: the nuances and subtleties sometimes evade them, nevertheless, they are all competent English speakers.
The vast majority find that their language skills improve with use, my French, German, Dutch and Spanish all vanish if I don't use the language!
It is very easy to hang a tag on something: academics are masters of the art, those who can do those who can't teach!
Their command of the language varies: the nuances and subtleties sometimes evade them, nevertheless, they are all competent English speakers.
The vast majority find that their language skills improve with use, my French, German, Dutch and Spanish all vanish if I don't use the language!
It is very easy to hang a tag on something: academics are masters of the art, those who can do those who can't teach!
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English proficiency tests
While the tests of English language proficiency are possibly deficient, I would say the first problem with learning English (or any other language), is the way the formal language courses are designed.
xxx
A retired "average skills" pilot, my skills with languages are outstanding, as I speak fully fluently (native level) 3 languages, speak 2 more quite well, and a last one soso - enough to get out of troubles, ask my way around or order meals in a restaurant. And I can understand others, say hello/thank you, but not speak...
xxx
The problem with learning languages are the language schools and school programs. Teachers who are not natives of that language, can barely pronounce and use poor grammar, and uncommon vocabulary. Any person, native of a language, call it English, even not certified teacher would be a better teacher, than a graduate teacher who has a degree in English education, but never practiced English in his life. A school, say in Budapest, would be better hiring a British born secretary (not even teacher) as teacher, than a school teacher who teaches English, but can barely speak it.
xxx
I now assist the Alliance Française in Buenos Aires, and an American language school in Buenos Aires as well, as volunteer teaching French and English to teenagers and young adults. Yet, I am not a qualified teacher. But, I convinced the school management of my teaching ability as I hold a (pilot) "instructor" licence, which made them believe or understand that yes, I can instruct = teach... in classrooms.
xxx
Ask yourself how kids learn their language (from their parents) when they are of low age... Do you see mother and dad taking their boy or girl on their lap, and tell them "today we will learn this vocabulary" and the rules of grammar, conjugation of past or future tenses, and reciting lists of past participles... It is obvious that kids learn with simple conversations, coloring books, "do you want a candy", songs on the radio, comic books from Disney, etc...
xxx
Do you want to know my "classroom equipment" for English...?
CNN News, from TV, 15 minutes in Spanish then same in English - MASH 4077 as TV shows - Beatles CD music records, or Celine Dion (they learn some songs) - Monopoly game (Atlantic City, NJ streets) - USA Vogue fashion magazines for girls, USA Car & Driver magazines for boys - and any group conversation of common interest in the classroom - A drink in an Irish Pub, after school, beers, if over 18, fruit juices if minors - and only English is used. I never say a word of Spanish. And yes, they learn the practical words, even the bad ones not to use. Grammar, basically none. Vocabulary, no isolated words, but small sentences. Spelling, we dont practice much, but correct pronounciation is important.
xxx
You can replace 4 years of "formal English" language classes in a college, with 3 months on location in the country. How did I learn English as a teen...? My teachers were Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, or Paul Anka, and text book was Flight Magazine. Bill Shakespeare... never heard of him. But I enjoyed theater plays of G.B. Shaw...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
A retired "average skills" pilot, my skills with languages are outstanding, as I speak fully fluently (native level) 3 languages, speak 2 more quite well, and a last one soso - enough to get out of troubles, ask my way around or order meals in a restaurant. And I can understand others, say hello/thank you, but not speak...
xxx
The problem with learning languages are the language schools and school programs. Teachers who are not natives of that language, can barely pronounce and use poor grammar, and uncommon vocabulary. Any person, native of a language, call it English, even not certified teacher would be a better teacher, than a graduate teacher who has a degree in English education, but never practiced English in his life. A school, say in Budapest, would be better hiring a British born secretary (not even teacher) as teacher, than a school teacher who teaches English, but can barely speak it.
xxx
I now assist the Alliance Française in Buenos Aires, and an American language school in Buenos Aires as well, as volunteer teaching French and English to teenagers and young adults. Yet, I am not a qualified teacher. But, I convinced the school management of my teaching ability as I hold a (pilot) "instructor" licence, which made them believe or understand that yes, I can instruct = teach... in classrooms.
xxx
Ask yourself how kids learn their language (from their parents) when they are of low age... Do you see mother and dad taking their boy or girl on their lap, and tell them "today we will learn this vocabulary" and the rules of grammar, conjugation of past or future tenses, and reciting lists of past participles... It is obvious that kids learn with simple conversations, coloring books, "do you want a candy", songs on the radio, comic books from Disney, etc...
xxx
Do you want to know my "classroom equipment" for English...?
CNN News, from TV, 15 minutes in Spanish then same in English - MASH 4077 as TV shows - Beatles CD music records, or Celine Dion (they learn some songs) - Monopoly game (Atlantic City, NJ streets) - USA Vogue fashion magazines for girls, USA Car & Driver magazines for boys - and any group conversation of common interest in the classroom - A drink in an Irish Pub, after school, beers, if over 18, fruit juices if minors - and only English is used. I never say a word of Spanish. And yes, they learn the practical words, even the bad ones not to use. Grammar, basically none. Vocabulary, no isolated words, but small sentences. Spelling, we dont practice much, but correct pronounciation is important.
xxx
You can replace 4 years of "formal English" language classes in a college, with 3 months on location in the country. How did I learn English as a teen...? My teachers were Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, or Paul Anka, and text book was Flight Magazine. Bill Shakespeare... never heard of him. But I enjoyed theater plays of G.B. Shaw...
xxx
Happy contrails
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I now assist the Alliance Française in Buenos Aires
One thing I have noticed on my travels, and having now learnt five languages fluently plus a smattering of a few others, is that those who struggle most in understanding imperfect non-native speakers are usually those who have never attempted to learn a second language themselves.
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I worked an avionics project on a 727 in MADrid a few years back. My co-workers were a Brit and a Kiwi. The Kiwi and I understood each other perfectly, but we both had trouble communicating with the Brit...
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Standard phraseology
BelArgUSA is 100% right, and well said.
I am a ground instructor in Thailand and at this time am conducting English proficiency courses for pilots and atc's. I'm an OZ and tell my trainees that that makes me inherant level 3. (Nice to have a good sense of humour).
As I see it the problem is not so much the lack of English skills as such but the lack of STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY. The worst offenders being those from the USA. Now before you shoot me down, local phraseology works OK amongst the locals but makes it very difficult and dangerous for pilots from other countries.
Also tends to breed bad habits amongst the newbees. Recently I pulled up one of my controller trainees for using the term "runway three" instead of "runway zero three". Yes I am nit picky, it's my job to be so.
I come from the old school where as a student pilot if one used "oh" instead of "zero" one was repremanded. My instructor told me "oh" is what I'll yell when he kicks me up the ars for saying it.
411A there have been many accidents and incidents were miscommunication that been the primary cause. A case in mind is the KLM - Pan Am accident at Tenerif. in which 583 people were killed. Had standard phraseology and procedures been used these people would not have lost their lives. In this accident it was not a case of lack of English language skills but lack of radiotelephony procedures and lack of use of standard phraseology.
When instructing English proficiency courses I stress and work on improving (a) Standard phraseology. (b) Correct pronunciation. (c) Pace, (many speak too fast). (d) Standard radiotelephony procedures. (e) Stress on the important information. (f) Use of SIMPLE plain English when needed.
For examples I mainly use audio visual recordings from the UK. An example is at this link.
I would appreciate any comments on language problems and any suggestions as to what areas I should work on to improve trainees communication skills.
On the matter of English proficiency testing the downfall in the ICAO system is that each member state CAA conducts it's own testing and sets criteria for same. Here in Thailand the criteria to attain level 4 or above is quite stringent. However other states are questionable. In Korea and China I believe many are coming away from the test at level 5+ ????
Testing must be done relative to the aviation environment. I had a Asia student who had studied at Oxford and had near native Englsh skills. She was shocked when I told her she was level 3. Her radiotelephony was terrible and her response to a role played emergency far from adequate.
Some interviewer raters around are academic linguists and have no idea about flight procedures.
Personally, I find European non native speakers harder to undersatnd than Asians. Particularly Turks. And yes many native speakers are hard to understand especially if they speak too fast.
Anyhow, it's a serious problem and hope the ICAO English proficiency requirements help. At least now communication skills are getting more attention in training programs.
For the sake of flight safety we all need to speak the same language and thats not English, it's STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY in English.
I am a ground instructor in Thailand and at this time am conducting English proficiency courses for pilots and atc's. I'm an OZ and tell my trainees that that makes me inherant level 3. (Nice to have a good sense of humour).
As I see it the problem is not so much the lack of English skills as such but the lack of STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY. The worst offenders being those from the USA. Now before you shoot me down, local phraseology works OK amongst the locals but makes it very difficult and dangerous for pilots from other countries.
Also tends to breed bad habits amongst the newbees. Recently I pulled up one of my controller trainees for using the term "runway three" instead of "runway zero three". Yes I am nit picky, it's my job to be so.
I come from the old school where as a student pilot if one used "oh" instead of "zero" one was repremanded. My instructor told me "oh" is what I'll yell when he kicks me up the ars for saying it.
411A there have been many accidents and incidents were miscommunication that been the primary cause. A case in mind is the KLM - Pan Am accident at Tenerif. in which 583 people were killed. Had standard phraseology and procedures been used these people would not have lost their lives. In this accident it was not a case of lack of English language skills but lack of radiotelephony procedures and lack of use of standard phraseology.
When instructing English proficiency courses I stress and work on improving (a) Standard phraseology. (b) Correct pronunciation. (c) Pace, (many speak too fast). (d) Standard radiotelephony procedures. (e) Stress on the important information. (f) Use of SIMPLE plain English when needed.
For examples I mainly use audio visual recordings from the UK. An example is at this link.
I would appreciate any comments on language problems and any suggestions as to what areas I should work on to improve trainees communication skills.
On the matter of English proficiency testing the downfall in the ICAO system is that each member state CAA conducts it's own testing and sets criteria for same. Here in Thailand the criteria to attain level 4 or above is quite stringent. However other states are questionable. In Korea and China I believe many are coming away from the test at level 5+ ????
Testing must be done relative to the aviation environment. I had a Asia student who had studied at Oxford and had near native Englsh skills. She was shocked when I told her she was level 3. Her radiotelephony was terrible and her response to a role played emergency far from adequate.
Some interviewer raters around are academic linguists and have no idea about flight procedures.
Personally, I find European non native speakers harder to undersatnd than Asians. Particularly Turks. And yes many native speakers are hard to understand especially if they speak too fast.
Anyhow, it's a serious problem and hope the ICAO English proficiency requirements help. At least now communication skills are getting more attention in training programs.
For the sake of flight safety we all need to speak the same language and thats not English, it's STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY in English.
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For the sake of flight safety we all need to speak the same language and thats not English, it's STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY in English.
The ICAO standard radio phraseology requirement is not the same as the ICAO English proficiency requirement.
The ICAO English proficiency is a measure of a pilot's grasp of everyday English - so it is perfectly possible for somebody with no concept of standard radio-phraseology to be ICAO level 6 (such a person could be any native English non pilot), and it is equally possible for a pilot to be extremely competent in standard radio phraseology yet struggle to reach ICAO level 4 standard.
Testing must be done relative to the aviation environment. I had a Asia student who had studied at Oxford and had near native Englsh skills. She was shocked when I told her she was level 3. Her radiotelephony was terrible and her response to a role played emergency far from adequate.
Some interviewer raters around are academic linguists and have no idea about flight procedures
Some interviewer raters around are academic linguists and have no idea about flight procedures
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
But I agree with you that many native English speakers are at fault for the communications problems that we all encounter because they do not use standard radio phraseology. The worst offenders are East Coast USA controllers - I am a native English speaker and I always find it unpleasant dealing with their impatient, aggressive garbled instructions.
Last edited by CirrusF; 5th Mar 2009 at 19:43.
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Ozthai
Now now Ozthai, do not start upsetting the toandfroms or tintanks! Just stick to Strine and you should be hunkadory!
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Standard Phraseology
Yes, ICAO Standard Phraseology is the problem. Maybe in particular for English native speakers. For them English is... English, no matter what accent, or pace, or local expressions they use. They think they will be understood. And they get generally understood... but by other English native speakers only.
xxx
Listen to a typical USA pilot on ATC flying in his country -
"Boxhauler Six Thirty Five, going down to One Nine (nein!) Oh...!"
"Six Three Five, roger, cleared to Fifteen Thousand contact approach on One Two Five point Five"...
"Okey-doc One Twenny Five point Five, so long"...
xxx
Any American will know the above, and Canadian too. I trust the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies and South Africans will too (rolling their eyes) and think "Gosh, these Yanks and their way to speak" will understand, no problem...!
xxx
But imagine pilots from Korea, China, or Japan trying to understand.
And ATCO will make no effort to speak and pronounce taking in account the differences in language of other pilots. Neither do they in London or Sydney.
xxx
Often doing line training with my South Americans to Chicago, New York, Miami or Los Angeles, no need to tell you, I let "my guys" handle the plane, and I was on the radio. ATCO must have said "wow, these Argentinos speak good English like we do"...!
xxx
Yes, I could pronounce "Ca-naah-see" to translate "Ca-narrrr-si" to my guys.
And no need to tell who was the only guy able to read back a clearance at Kennedy.
Clearance, or verbal speed contest to copy what we do...?
xxx
American ATCO dictionnary -
Decimal (as in frequency) is "point"
Alti-mett-her, you call it QNH
Line-up and wait is "position and hold"
Five is "fife" - nine is "niner" - oh is "zeero"
Be ready to say ten thousand for one zero thousand
Contact "point seven five" (after landing) means 121.75...
xxx
One thing I leave to the Yanks. Their English is spoken by nearly 350 million people and quite popular worldwide thanks to the Hollywood movie industry. The slow speaking of actors John Wayne or Gregory Peck is easy to understand. I wish the Brits all would speak like on BBC World, or like singer Roger Whittaker in his popular songs. Paul Hogan as Crocodile Dundee told us how to speak like Aussies.
xxx
You think you got problem with English...?
Try your Spanish in Buenos Aires, si no sos un Che porteño...
Or you, friend from Québec, take an interpreter for your French when in Paris.
xxx
Happy contrails
Moderators -
When you say "only English in the forum, which English shall it be...?
Is it ok, I write "program" for "programme"...!
xxx
Listen to a typical USA pilot on ATC flying in his country -
"Boxhauler Six Thirty Five, going down to One Nine (nein!) Oh...!"
"Six Three Five, roger, cleared to Fifteen Thousand contact approach on One Two Five point Five"...
"Okey-doc One Twenny Five point Five, so long"...
xxx
Any American will know the above, and Canadian too. I trust the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies and South Africans will too (rolling their eyes) and think "Gosh, these Yanks and their way to speak" will understand, no problem...!
xxx
But imagine pilots from Korea, China, or Japan trying to understand.
And ATCO will make no effort to speak and pronounce taking in account the differences in language of other pilots. Neither do they in London or Sydney.
xxx
Often doing line training with my South Americans to Chicago, New York, Miami or Los Angeles, no need to tell you, I let "my guys" handle the plane, and I was on the radio. ATCO must have said "wow, these Argentinos speak good English like we do"...!
xxx
Yes, I could pronounce "Ca-naah-see" to translate "Ca-narrrr-si" to my guys.
And no need to tell who was the only guy able to read back a clearance at Kennedy.
Clearance, or verbal speed contest to copy what we do...?
xxx
American ATCO dictionnary -
Decimal (as in frequency) is "point"
Alti-mett-her, you call it QNH
Line-up and wait is "position and hold"
Five is "fife" - nine is "niner" - oh is "zeero"
Be ready to say ten thousand for one zero thousand
Contact "point seven five" (after landing) means 121.75...
xxx
One thing I leave to the Yanks. Their English is spoken by nearly 350 million people and quite popular worldwide thanks to the Hollywood movie industry. The slow speaking of actors John Wayne or Gregory Peck is easy to understand. I wish the Brits all would speak like on BBC World, or like singer Roger Whittaker in his popular songs. Paul Hogan as Crocodile Dundee told us how to speak like Aussies.
xxx
You think you got problem with English...?
Try your Spanish in Buenos Aires, si no sos un Che porteño...
Or you, friend from Québec, take an interpreter for your French when in Paris.
xxx
Happy contrails
Moderators -
When you say "only English in the forum, which English shall it be...?
Is it ok, I write "program" for "programme"...!
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belargusa said:
"Yes, I could pronounce "Ca-naah-see" to translate "Ca-narrrr-si" to my guys.
And no need to tell who was the only guy able to read back a clearance at Kennedy.
Clearance, or verbal speed contest to copy what we do...?
xxx"
who do you think you are? I have told you before: you never flew a 747 in an argentininan company, nor you where an instructor or TRE is any argentinian company. So stop pretending you where. I really think you need medical help to say the least. Pretend you are from somewhere else ok?
sos un chanta hermano
baires1
"Yes, I could pronounce "Ca-naah-see" to translate "Ca-narrrr-si" to my guys.
And no need to tell who was the only guy able to read back a clearance at Kennedy.
Clearance, or verbal speed contest to copy what we do...?
xxx"
who do you think you are? I have told you before: you never flew a 747 in an argentininan company, nor you where an instructor or TRE is any argentinian company. So stop pretending you where. I really think you need medical help to say the least. Pretend you are from somewhere else ok?
sos un chanta hermano
baires1
Last edited by baires1; 6th Mar 2009 at 20:49.
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Non Airline Stuff ???
Moderator, why is this topic in the non airline stuff forum.
Effects every airline in the world that operates internationally.
CirrusF, before stating that I am completely wrong perhaps you need to do some research, Below is from ICAO.
Effects every airline in the world that operates internationally.
CirrusF, before stating that I am completely wrong perhaps you need to do some research, Below is from ICAO.
From ICAO | FLS | FAQs
Could a language proficiency test contain radiotelephony and technical questions?
The Note found in the Appendix to Annex 1 indicates that the Holistic Descriptors and Rating Scale apply to the use of phraseology as well as plain language. Just as testing of ICAO phraseology cannot be used to assess plain language proficiency, neither can English language proficiency tests be used to test ICAO standardized phraseology.
It is acceptable that a test contain a scripted test task in which phraseology is included in a prompt. The test task may be used as a warm up or an ice-breaker and elicit a plain language response from the test taker. Test prompts should not be intended to evaluate specific technical knowledge concerning operations. For example, prompts such as "What is the separation minima for aircraft being vectored for an ILS approach?", or "Describe the different flight modes of the A320 flight control system" are not acceptable
