Life after Lion Air
 

To all of the Lion Air pilots that have paid for their line training through agents , I ask you this ;

Have your colleagues successfully moved on to other carriers ? If so, does your pay to fly experience come up during interviews with other airlines ?

If you aren't being given take offs and landings how confident are you in your skills ?

Are they upgrading you guys or do you have to pay again for PIC "Line training "?

I'm not trying to be condescending , I'm just curious to know what the plan is after having paid so much money ...

with Lion's poor reputation on safety and training.. no airline will touch these poor guys.. they far worse with the Lion stamp on them compared to a zero hr CPL holder.
Lion Air stds on quality / safety / training are very poor and dropping everyday. And this does not help these young boys & girls :ugh::mad:pay to fly is a bad disease spreading all over Asia.:=

Have seen a few got on with Scoot apparently but had to pay for half of that 777 rating (no surprise - that PFT is well known). :ugh:

I guess if you can get significant landings/takeoffs in a 737-900ER at Lion Air over a few years and not put the aircraft in the water off Bali, you might have some good, marketable experience for your next career move... :yuk:

I can vouch for the Fly Dubai pilots, a fair few are ex Lion air.

And consider this point of view before judging any person at any airline, take a look at yourself in the mirror, say you are the best pilot in the world, just because the livery on the outer skin of the aircraft says Lion on it, does that really make you un-employable and a terrible pilot? come on!

It's good to see people moving on from Lion Air, I don't agree with Pay to Fly but you guys did what you needed to do !

On the flip side , I was in the sim with one of these pay to fly wonders not too long ago not only could he not fly the airplane with the auto pilot and flight directors off , he didn't know SOPs or had any idea of how to do approaches. So my question is this, what exactly do you do during you line training ?

Many companies have stopped taking pay to fly people , it's unfair to those of you who actually have the skills to succeed elsewhere but we find that the majority of these candidates come with limited knowledge and a poor attitude .

So they are giving take offs and landings to FOs? What is the CRM like? Do you shut up and follow orders or do you work as a crew to resolve issues ?

Your OP has been aptly replied but it seems that you don't want to accept the reality like many others on this forum. Come on , change the things you can or accept the things you can not, but use your brain to know the difference.:rolleyes:

It's bad to see people moving on from Lion Air, I don't agree with Pay to Fly but you guys did what you needed to do to **** other pilots over! And your friends, family and anyone trying to make a decent living in any profession.

@samju? Accept reality ? I will never endorse pay to fly , these agents are going to be taught a lesson, it's just another accident waiting to happen.

The OP was more targeted to how other airlines look at your pay to fly choices, I know that EK looks down upon it but I wanted to hear feedback from those of you who have gone through it.

I was also interested in your line training / employment experience, You've paid $70,000 plus I would want to get my money's worth and get good TRIs during my sectors that will actually teach me things.

After several bad experiences, the company I work for does not hire Pay to fly " pilot" passengers anymore...:ok:

Paying to work is a choice, and that choice more often than not is one that shows a lack of long term vision and a severe lack of responsibility towards your collegues and profession.

Ps. I work as a trainer for an EASA carrier with the best conditions in Europe for B737 FO's.

If co-pilots are not allowed to take off/land, what if the captain suffers a heart attack/stroke or just not feeling well enough to perform? What then?

Repeat after me.... A-U-T-O-L-A-N-D:ok:

or plainly call "I HAVE CONTROL" and reject :} (TO that is…)

Lion Pilots do share the sectors with captains.

Look a 250 hour fresher is never gonna be fully ready for the likes of a B737 straight out of flight school.

I am certain that the first 12 months must be very hard on these guys, & I am certain that a few would drop out, but after this time I sm sure these chaps are confident operators of the machine.

Wether its right or wrong way is not important, im certain that these pilots have more important career goals other than to keep the readers of pprune happy.

Bad habits do catch up someday.....
Worth a read..Apparently the Colgan pilot, As well as the Pinnacle CRJ cowboys were P2F from Gulfstream airlines.

Airline that trained Buffalo crash pilot fined $1.3M - USATODAY.com

The name or the livery does not matter, But the bad ethics of these companies can kill the unfortunate SLF on board

Also, the Comair flight out of Lexington that took the wrong runway at night and crashed at the end of the runway had a former Gulstream P2F pilot in the cockpit.

@ Zondaracer and VT-ASM, can you describe if these were P2F as well or are they trained in 'your' category' ? :}

UPS Crash A306
or
BritAir CRJ7
or
ANA A320 Tailstrike on G/A
or
Air France A330 hard landing
or
Emirates Tailstrike and RWY overrun on Take Off
or
Air France A330 crash over the Atlantic

All mostly human errors I see.... doesn't really only hurt the 'P2F' guys, any more? Guess your not that immortal really Zondaracer or VT-ASM.... :eek:

That said, most guys in Lion got paid for the flying and only did the Typerating course before, same same as Ryan or Easyjet or Volotea etc.

Not taking away that the Bali incident was with a hardcore P2F guy (paying the Indian agent a fee to work every month during his employment) but his captain was not....

So...now to the point.. Lion Air pilots are from different make/build/flight school backgrounds... (WOW!) some in Lion Air will never move on, not pass a screening ever, stay in Indonesia and be a F.O.

Others did pass screenings, did new Typeratings, did well in groundschool and moved into other airlines :
- Turkish Airlines , about 40-50 guys joined (or are joining) THY in the past 8 months
- Scoot has 10+ guys
- Qatar has a fair share (15+) of Ex-Lion guys as F.O. 777 or F.O. A320 operating
- Hong Kong Airlines / Hong Kong Express has about 10+
- FlyDubai has 10+ on 737
- Jet2.com has 10+ on 737
- British Airways 6+ on Widebody second officers mostly
- Primera Air 3+ on the 737
- Oman Air 3+ on 737
- ArkeFly has 8+ on the 767 and 737
- Etihad 4+ on multiple widebody's
- Norwegian has 10+ on the 737's
- Emirates is having Lion Air guys
- Cathay Pacific 2+ as S.O.
- Air Baltic 4+
- Ethiopian 2+
- Garuda had 10+ guys, but had to lay-off/fire expats two years ago.
- Insel Air
.......etc....etc....

I you can fly you can make it... if you can't you get picked out and get stuck. P2F or not...

i would hardly call that list you made of people who have moved on a success, most of those airlines are crap and not worthy of aspiration at all. youre gonna regret spending $70K to work for free, it will take you years to earn it all back :=

Most of those airlines are crap?

The list from dragonflying did mention airlines like Qatar, Emirates, Etihad, British and Turkish. You are calling them crap?

For who do you wanna fly? Virgin Galactic?

Just :mad: the :mad::mad: up and read on :ugh:

@Dragon flying something
 

Quite an impressive list you got there..
The guys are P2F on the listed carriers as well ?? :}:}
No ? Jeez ! come on !
S:mad:rew up the industry more ! Spread the word !!
Well next step...(Not too far)
Airlines ask you to buy your own plane and work for free...:}
Bingo ! :D
I'm sure Lionair's got folks who have gone in the hard way. No offence to them.
But as attested in my previous posts, P2F has got to stop. :ugh::ugh:

i am not throwing stones at lion air, and i am not trying to be nasty. its the P2F gig i have a problem with. please put this entire idea in financial perspective. spend $70K on "line training" for a few years, on top of whatever you already spent to learn to fly, and then support yourself for the duration of this "training" and you are looking at well over $100K spent, maybe getting close to $150K? and now how about the typical self funded TR most LCC seem to favor, better find another $30K to spend. you are heading towards financial ruin.

i have spoken with guys here at my airline who did that and even with the money we make, they will be paying off massive debts for quite a while. flying a 777 and living like a backpacker!! :yuk: better hope you dont lose your license/medical in the meantime.....