crying for pilots, really?
 

some guys here think Asian airlines are crying for pilots?
is that true?

on other forum, guys from Europe think because some airlines ordered planes it will create a pilot shortage...

yes and no is the answer, i work for an Indonesian company and we have way too may fo's but not enough captains, most airlines here its the same story, so if you have experience they are crying out for you but if you are a fresh graduate not so much.
in the other asian countries they all have a lot of unemployed locals so they will only recruit their own nationals first eg: Thai, Malaysia and India

If airlines offered descent terms and conditions, then why would they be crying for qualified skippers?:hmm:

The shortage is most critical in the area of; locally licensed Captain, type rated with experience on type, current and decent performance in the sim. Basically someone who can be available on the roster next month.

Numbers of available pilots start increasing as as you move away from the above. Once you get to new licence holders applying from the other side of the world the filing cabinets quickly fill up.

Yes they are. Many Asian carriers are hiring non-type rated captains, when they didn't used to do that. Some are hiring FOs, when they didn't used to do that. Terms and conditions have gotten way better, and minimums have gone down.

Some jobs are last sim in the last 5 years, when they used to require currency last 6 months. Top pay for E-145 capts $15K/month +....while top pay for E170/190 capts is now $18.5/month+.

ground realities
 

Pilot job dreams crash as aviation suffers - Hindustan Times

Code:

---

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/SectorsAviation/Pilot-job-dreams-crash-as-aviation-suffers/Article1-1005887.aspx

---

Pilot job dreams crash as aviation suffers

Last week, Palash Roy's family was served a legal notice by a bank. Roy's father, a railway employee, had taken a Rs. 18-lakh loan so that his son could enroll in a pilot training academy. Today, Palash, 25, works as a personal assistant to a member of parliament. He says his family has no means to pay back the loan amount.

Palash is one of the many thousands whose dream to become a commercial airline pilot came crashing after a slowdown hit the aviation industry about five years ago. There are an estimated 12,000 unemployed commercial pilot licence (CPL) holders in the country and the number is increasing every year.
Employment opportunities for new comers are next to nil. There are only six domestic carriers. "There is a complete freeze on hiring in almost all airlines. What airlines want are experienced commanders. There is hardly any demand for first officers," said Roy, who had left his engineering course midway to pursue his dream to become a pilot. While a captain earns around Rs. 4.5 lakh-a-month, co-pilots get around Rs. 2 lakh.
Pilot training academies charge between Rs. 20-25 lakh for a one-and-a-year course. That is not all. "After completing CPL training I spent another Rs. 5 lakh on multi-engine training in 2009," said Roy, who hails from Assam.
Airlines, he said, prefer type-rated first officers, which would mean coughing up even more - as much as Rs. 25 lakh - to qualify. However, there is no guarantee if that too would help as there are dozens who are jobless even after getting the type-rating done.
Indian carriers employ around 5,000 pilots and co-pilots, who include around 340 high-cost expatriate commanders.
There are 32 recognised flying schools in the country and joining them involves risk. "There is nothing like a job guarantee or placement," said an official at the Amritsar Aviation Club.
"Kingfisher is gone and no one else is recruiting. The aviation industry is in the doldrums since 2008," said Captain Mohan Ranganathan, an aviation expert. Before spending such huge amounts on flying training people should atleast find out if there are any jobs at all in the market, he said.
Since the Kingfisher crisis began in late 2011, an estimated 400 pilots and 600 cabin crew have left the airline.
"It's true that at present there are no vacancies," said a senior executive at a private carrier.
"Not even a single person in my batch could become a pilot. Those who had family businesses were lucky. Many others went back to college and did their graduation. Many are still sitting idle. There is also an Unemployed Pilot's Welfare Association on Facebook," said Roy.
Those who have trained to be cabin crew are no better off. Salaries for newcomers are as low as Rs. 25,000 a month.
"The charm is gone. Salaries are no more attractive. Very few of us get to fly on international routes. Moreover, there are hardly any vacancies," said a stewardess who did not wish to be named.

Experienced, current and qualified! Sure, there are some opportunities to be had but for the low time pilots and for the out of currency guys, it is tough out there:ugh:

"who include around 340 high-cost expatriate commanders"

Without these high costing Ex Pat Captains the Indian carriers would be losing even more money than they currently are losing. It is strictly a cost-benefit analysis, keeping an Ex Pat Captain airborne generates much more than his salary. China learned this long ago and now leads Ex Pat pay. Other countries are a little slower to come around to Industry standard terms and conditions but eventually will have to in order to attract the qualified and skilled talent.

Really...who? Typed with thousands of SIC hours in both B744 and MD-11, 1500+ PIC EMB-145 and 1000 PIC turboprop and can't qualify for CA position anywhere but 1 737 operator in Japan. :{ :=

Is not that there aren't a few non-typed DEC jobs out there, it is that your PIC times are not competitive, regardless of what A/C's your SIC times are on, for the non typed DEC game, SIC times are useless.:ugh:

@WYOMING
 

Sir, could you kindly elaborate this?

12,000 unemployed pilots in india.this is crazy.....:ugh:

The 12000 unemployed number is untrue

12000 is the number of pilots in India that have been issued a Commercial Pilot License since the beginning of Indian aviation .

Unemployed number would be around 5000-6000

Aeronino. not crazy at all.
12000 guys/gals with SJS. They assumed the Indian market would explode with a need for pilots. But they over estimated. FTO's were happy to provide a service for these ladies and gents. Unfortunate part is lots of these guys/gals were naive. Thought a CPL with 250 hours would get them in the RHS of a 737. Works for a select few but for the vast vast majority of pilots they get there through GA work. Unfortunately not that much GA work in India. So it comes down to numbers. Supply and demand. Then you have these 12000 pilots that can't get a job so now lets say 10-20% are looking into other avenues p2f/line training etc. These guys are so desparate they are willing to pay 50-60K for line training and work for peanuts on top of that. So the QOL in the industry will continue to be eroded. Advice for a lot of these wet CPL ticket holders: move on with your life; you've had some good memories; the chances of it working out are slim. The areas of growth (indo, etc) need EXPERIENCED pilots. Eventually; most FO slots will be filled by their own nationals not expats. Sorry for sounding negative but that is what is going on.

Quote:
Without these high costing Ex Pat Captains the Indian carriers would be losing even more money than they currently are losing. It is strictly a cost-benefit analysis, keeping an Ex Pat Captain airborne generates much more than his salary Sir, could you kindly elaborate this?

Most assuredly, Price for an Ex Pat Captain $200 per hour, revenue generated per hour $5000, simple math, the Ex Pat Captain generates far more than his salary. India is short of qualified Captains thus the DEC positions are offered.

There is no shortage of real pilots.

There is a severe shortage of airlines willing to pay for experienced pilots, train to high standards and therefore recruit the most suitable pilots. Look at CX but for the latest once great airline racing to the bottom in the chase for profit at the expense of standards.

There is a severe shortage "pilots" who think that spending masses of money on a shiny CPL grants them the RHS of a 777, A330/340 or 747. They'll tolerate a 737 of A320 but anything with a prop is a slander.

There is a severe shortage of pilots with the balls to go out and get a job to build hours and experience: to travel overseas if need be (or even leave home) to fly some freight or meat-bombing to get their tail into a control seat be a C210, C182 or light twin. The words "general aviation" make them cringe and viewed as being beneath them.

There is a severe shortage of pilots who are not "Children of the Magenta" lacking the basic stick and rudder skills.

However, there is no shortage of whining Gen-Y "pilots" with a fresh CPL who believe they are owed a job by virtue of nationality alone, neglecting any form of experience and true credentials.

ok let s go see if there is a pilot shortage.

Recruiters, please pm me.... i have 250h cpl, ready to work In asia. no pay to fly.

now lets wait 3 days... and i will see if my pprune boxe will be full or empty... I keep you posted

Amin Top Tup lets buy them some tissues

toptup that was blunt but well said :ok:

atpcliff,

NOT even close, sorry.

Like so many people have already stated if your Captain qualified and current with 500 hrs on type you bet you can land a pretty decent gig that pays pretty well, but your time off is not great on many of the contracts.

I've been looking for 4 months for work out here in Asia and have not even so much as been invited for an interview. NTR F/O's, really? If you have a JAA and want to fly in Turkey, then maybe but thats about it.

With some of the a/c orders there should be a ton of hiring happening but its not and what there is has a lot of preferences

slowstream mate what ratings and hours do you have?

friend of mine 12000 TT 3500 on the little buses, struggling to get a job cause he's been out for some time, current though. anyone can explain?

The only place in the world, where pilots have to pay for their TR, almost as a mandatory issue, is Europe. In Asia, they made the people pay because there is a lot of idiots "rich-dad-babies" from Europe, who want to pay, yes they want to pay, the thing is in Asia, due the amount of population and GDP grow, they don't have enough idiots with a bought TR with a decent amount of hours, so they lower the minimums, and or made the idiots from Europe to pay line training. ONLY because these idiots want to feel great seated on a right seat in a shiny jet. An average of 50000 €, $, £, or whatever, is a big, big money. It's just prostitution!!!
In America, from Canada to Argentina, no one has to pay for a TR, if some body paid, is because was an idiot. LAN tried to make the people pay, and the unions worked out.
So guys, stop acting like idiots, respect and make the rest to respect you, I consider a colleague who pays a TR, for whatever reason, an IDIOT, that's it

gtr21,

I have 7000 hrs, 4600 PIC, 1800 jet

F/O on A300, 733-3,737-2

Capt on CRJ900, CRJ200, LR35, WW24, BA31, D228.

Its been a brutal 4 months and I am desperate to get back to work.

Like I said if your Capt typed and current and with all FAA, ICAO, JAA licence yeah sure lots of work.

Lets not forget also that you have the right to work in a number of these countries. Some of the countries down here have been putting pressure on their airlines to only hire their own nationals. I have a lot of respect for that assuming that you have enough people with the education and experience to fill those positions; otherwise you end up with a problem and can be labeled with a unsafe rating.

TWI in the USA is looking for Captains for IBEX in Japan for CRJs

It disappoints me that kids and there parents are still willing to take these massive loans, gambling the life of the whole family to follow this pipedream of becoming an airline pilot, which by the way is not the job it used to be. The flight training organisations particularly companies like CTC in Europe are nothing more than sharks peddling this unrealistic dream.

In China the only jobs worth having for the next few years will be for experienced type rated Captains. There will be non type rated jobs, but if you enter non type rated, however good you are, you will be considered a second class Pilot and the CAAC will make things as hard for you as possible.

klunk49,

Thanks, but as a Canadian I don't have the right to work in the USA.

The Japan contracts want someone who is current, I am 2 years expired.
I replied saying that the experience is still valuable but they were not interested and there is the attitude in Asia.

Kungfu Panda,

You're right its a shame to see, the industry is not what it use to be. Its a ton of money to throw into a career that will yield so many hardships for new young pilots. There will always be a select few who the stars line up just right and they will end up with an amazing and rewarding career, but they are few and far between.

Bottom line again if your a Captain on a 737 or 320 with 500 PIC you have your choice of work and conditions

@ OAD i can tell you for a fact not every guy who comes here to asia pays for his Tr or an agency.
I agree P2F is not the right way to go but paying a TR doesn't make you an idiot.
I agree guys who just join up with eagle jet or any other agencies right after flying school and jump on to jets are killing the industry but dont put the guys who leave their country behind and go knocking on each and every door asking for a job and eventually when they do hear back the only way they will be hired is if they pay for their type rating.
These guys pay for TR but that's it, they do not pay to fly, they payed to get a rating and that was it. Here even if you want to fly a caravan if you are a foreigner you need to fund the Tr your self.
so if you want to moan, moan at the guys who take their money and throw it at agencies,moan at the agencies who cater to the idiots

my mail box is still empty... i presume there is no pilot shortage in asia....!

I believe money falls from the sky for some. some have so much money to spend that they will pay their son 200k euro for a license and a type rating and maybe 6 months jobs. some people on earth make 1000 to 2000$ a second... and they do nothing, just bla bla in meetings... like these guys in Saudi. Chinese will be next to come with their cash to buy training in airlines.

now we are at 6 months line training if lucky to fly every week, still no money at the end of line training.. to finish unemployed.
in 12 months we will see airlines asking for 500h jet to fly for 500h line training then take the door.

then they will ask for 1000h jet to pay for 2000h.and so on... and get out for next Nintendo player.
i bet in 3 or 5 years we will call it the half million $ real video game... (airbus) ! :D and still unemployed...

in fact pilots play the pilot. they play with fms, navigation displays.,... it s not a job anymore... it s a pass time.! pilots don't say they work, the say they fly... mean they play.... they never grew up... they think about themselves only and don't know what work mean. parents pay for everything. so why not to take their money.? airlines understand this new generation of kids who want everything now...

have a good day... :-)

@joblooker have you mailed any of the companies here ??
my bet will be try and get an email in to susi air . they fly caravans and have a lot of foreign pilots working for them

Have you tried Garuda? They can't seem to get enough type rated pilots for their CRJ1000 at the moment with more aircraft due to arrive soon.

Hi Training wheels,

Thanks, yes I have. I spoke with one of the senior guys in hiring who said they want current typed Indonesians first. I can't fault them at that ........ but there is no way that they have that many typed and experienced pilots there looking for work in Indonesia.

Also my killer is that I have not flown the RJ for 2.5 years so I am not current plus a little short on the command time that they want.

I know its only my selfish perspective but it does not make sense to me, as a airline your desperately short of typed and experienced guys why would they not consider me? I still have a good level of experience on the a/c and that is worth a lot, yes?

Plus I am 737-300 typed and current, arrrrrgh.

Very frustrating especially when you desperately need a job

Slowstream, there's also Sriwijaya and Express Air in Indo that IMO you should apply to.

Also, no harm in trying for the CRJ seat in Garuda. I see mainly foreign pilots flying those gorgeous babies.

It might be a good investment to visit Indonesia. You can get some cheap surfing or diving lessons here. At least if you don't get a job, you got to learn how to surf or dive meanwhile...

"who include around 340 high-cost expatriate commanders"

This is a stupid comment! Of course Expat Commanders need to be highly paid to choose to fly and be based in India; because when you are an experienced Captain on A320, 737, A330 or 777, with a nice FAA or JAA licence, you have a choice!

Top tup: very well said!

FBW 390

flyboy nz

Thanks, it looks like I am going on the road next week to Ind & Tha and stop in and see some of these airlines! Hopefully I will get in to see some of the people I need to see. God knows I've zero luck trying to follow up with them on the phone or via e-mail.

Thanks for the info on Sriwijaya, I was not aware of them.

I've applied several times to Garuda and Expressair, but plan on stopping by both of them next week.

Yes, the RJ900 is a good looking bird, I loved flying it and it handles very similar to the 737-3

Cheers & thanks again!

New hire pilots get paid peanuts in the US. In Europe and Asia, pilots are required to pay for their type rating and only then will they have a shot at a job. The Middle East airlines have the fastest growth in terms of aircraft purchases, and yet, they seem to pick and choose the best and most experienced out of the world's airlines. Some countries will only hire nationals for new hires, others will take type rated pilots only on contract. Some only want former military.The drumbeat carries on.
Does this look like a pilot shortage to you? To me it smacks of opportunistic flying schools trying to make a quick buck as the media fuels the pilot shortage myth.:ugh:
Folks, there has been a pilot shortage now for four decades. Or not.......
Alt3.