Getting fined for mistakes is part of their aviation culture. Every single expat knows that when they come here. I don't remember anything allowing a 12k fine, however. But complaining about the fines? We are all volunteers.
Some of the other stuff, however, is not as advertised. Every couple of months the CAAC comes up with some new requirement, medical, or check ride. The latest a few months ago was an MRI, CT scan, and carodit aertery ultrasound. We lost one so far, and almost lost a couple more, and not everyone is complete.
Out of maybe 20 pilots or so that were at BCA, online, for more than a year, I can only think of 2 or 3 that didn't fail a medical, at least once.

funny how perception is reality.

I do not understand sir... what part of "perception is reality" ?


i like flying in china...once i got pass the culture shock..
the people are overall friendly...yes i know about the caac and the crazyness. but it is not entirely overall.....


Stockholm syndrome 101. A bit of counseling and a brew or two with fellow aviators will do wonders for you.
Referring to craziness and the CAAC in the same phrase makes me wonder what part of flying in China do you really like. Do you enjoy seeing your co-workers abused and fined at the drop of a hat? Do you enjoy the wisdom of QAR used against you on every flight? How about the constant +2 hour "flow control delays" with rioting passengers locked up in the cabin? No support from ground staff or airport police? How about the guys failing medical checks, how do you explain that to your next insurance company when applying for coverage? List goes on, these are some of the most extravagant ops I have ever heard of. Let alone witness.



i like the country...have many chinese friends and hope to stay many years. have been 2 years...

This is a thread on and about Spring Airlines. Please stick to it. Your personal warm and fuzzy feelings are touching, but ill suited at this time.


for me it is about attitude and thankful i have a good job. it seems to work for me..

So, did you also get a "suggestion" (as the gent that got fined for the altitude bust…), or did you just felt the urge to come and spread peace among anonymous posters? Do you too have any incidents as of late and been given a chance to redeem by giving you a “chance” to prove their good will? Give me a break buster! They have already shown their cards with the fines. Anything else is an after thought.
It's not all about attitude; it's about professionalism, first. These guys started the game with the fines, with their politics and their games. This thread began to alert fellow pilots of the situation. No one is making up anything here. Not even you!

With regards to your happy stance of holding a job… As long as there is a need for a service that you are able to deliver, you will have a job. Here or anywhere else for that matter. If that's all you aspire too!

Got it? then get it...

You can't accuse the man of Stockholm Syndrome for daring to speak well of aspects of the country, do a point-by-point teardown of working with the CAAC, and then turn right back around and say "this is a thread about Spring Airlines". You are not up to your own standard.

Another perspective has been offered. It seems there are people enjoying the Chinese experience, provided they are not working for Spring. This strengthens the point of the thread, as you have defined it. Don't be a toad about it.

Again I may be a bit nearsighted but Springaviator can speak of Stockholm Syndrome openly if he suspects the poster has been given a "suggestion" by management to post here as the fined pilot was.

There are those who grovel and kowtow to every perceived minor local authority figure in a company's flight operations. They do so in the mistaken belief that they will be rewarded. These spineless grey men are the weak underbelly of our industry and should be ostracized as such.

To apologise for the CAAC and Spring in such a flippant manner ("the craziness") when a group of professional peers are airing legitimate and serious concerns for their livelihoods smacks of either climbhappy being a hired troll or somewhat retarded.

In any case I believe this link might be of help:
Submissive Behavior

spring aviator,
your views are so extreme..yes there are cases of fines and going to the sim for hard landings..but you impress me as a guy who isn't laid back and quite stressed out.

my perception of my life and flying in china is my "reality" i love it

you got me pal? don't piss on my parade!

i can't help my coworkers and i like my coworkers. we're just contract pilots. or r u one of these guys that is plotting to unionize? and fight the chinese? a guy always making dissent in calm waters and stirring $hit everywhere you go?

i made a comment mr. thread police and it got a laugh from one guy...try humor sometime dude.. or go back to the usa and swing gear for 35,000 (i assume u r american ..just go back to your home country)

i don't need ur advice.. my God watches over me
life is good...jack....have a beer and loosen the F up.

Potato, I don’t think so much about perspectives, but since climb happy knows what is going on at Spring (it is safe to assume he works there) and says that it’s all about attitudes I need to add my 2 cents.
There is nothing in my post that suggests anything wrong with China or its nationals per se. I am not in to promote personal opinions and believe they have little place here. There are plenty of forums discussing the pros and cons when living in any country. Some families and individuals adapt, others don’t and there is nothing more to that. If you must know, and in order to clear the air, I find more positives than negatives.
When a pilot in at Spring is fined USD $12,000 for busting an altitude and his local colleague gets fined a mere 3% of that amount for the same mistake it begs an argument. Shortly thereafter, another pilot gets suspended for a month with no paycheck (USD$13.500) for wearing sleepers in the flight deck, on a 16 hr duty day, while some others have done much worse and get away with it. I do feel for those guys as we can all make a mistake, be it of judgment or operational. But 2 wrongs do not make one right. The severity of the penalties imposed are out of any contract let alone comprehension. This is what got the thread started.
On a different subject now, guys have failed medicals and are sent back home only to regain full medicals at their home turf. I can imagine their frustration trying to explain this to a future employer and insurance company when looking for coverage. Nothing there to enjoy, no good attitude will restore the damage that is already done. There are plenty more examples that are not even mentioned. A good attitude has little to do with it all, and as we all had, it will be quick to turn around when confronted by such abuse and lack of reasoning. Since I am here for the long haul (flying that is) I will protect my interest and will look after the well being of my license. No good attitude will preserve such.
I therefore disagree with the initial post, it is not about attitudes. There are plenty of traps never mentioned in the Spring brochure that may have catastrophic consequences to a pilots career, and that needs to be brought up to anyone willing to part with their surroundings when looking to do a contract.
Let’s stay focused, Spring Airlines only. What are the problems, how to fix them and how to make the best out if all. This should benefit all. Thanks.

OK>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been looking for a while now at different contracts and agencies and deduct the following:
Parc Aviation is the only agency I will consider and Spring Airlines would be the last airline I would apply for. And only if their were no other choices.
Thanks for all your input everybody!

Hello Everyone,
I can see this thread goes back quite far but have been contacted several times in the last couple of weeks by agencies recruiting for Spring and was wondering if there have been any changes at the company since people last posted?

Also as to whether these bonus schemes that the agencies keep throwing out and the people on here keep bashing have been seen in action yet by anyone who has been working at there?

I fit the requirements and don't really have much lined up at the moment but obviously wouldn't mind some updated gen.

i know a couple Spring pilots and it is currently a good Jub plus you get to live in Shanghai which is a great deal.BUT!!!!!!!
Most of the guys I work with had the choice to apply to them or BCA. To a man, we all chose BCA, not because we thought it was better, but we didn't want to be held prisoner to a gigantic bonus at the end. At the time Spring paid 10% more, but not until the end with all the bonus money.
Fast forward 2 years. so far Spring has met their comitments. But working in China is a month to month gig. you never know when you will fail something, even for no reason and no fault. I would make the same choice again, even though I would prefer to live in Shanghai. I simply don't trust the locals to keep their promises,
The last I heard Spring is still a decent place to work, but having a 74,000 dollar rope wrapped around my neck for 3 years isn't worth it.
Everybody gets to make their own choice.
My humble opinion.
Other opinions may differ.

Either way if your going to China I'd focus on the company with the Best monthly salary rather than these empty promises and Spring has one of the lowest salaries going for that area as you would expect from the Ryanair of China.

It's not just about the money for me and your talking about a difference of a couple of thousand per month I would rather go without and work for a solid and reliable company than to go somewhere like chingbongdabingzow in the middle of nowhere to count grains of rice once I've finished counting my cash.

$73,000 rope isn't ideal but then Shanghai sounds ok, Have you spent any time there USMC?

chingbongdabingzow is actually quite nice this time of year I'll have you know :ok:

The number 1 thing in China, if that is what you want to do, is does the combination of airline and agency have the ability to successfully recruit and get you through the process to get online. The best ones have a very low success rate from interview to passing a line check. The bad ones. - you don't want to know. Chose a worthless agency like Smile or Unic and they will probably screw up some small detail and you won't make it for some idiotic reason. in China you are probably going to get only 1 shot.
After that? Well we are all different with different priorities. Some want every last dime, some want lifestyle, etc. Some are more "culturally sensitive" than others.
Choose carefully and good luck.

Just Heard from a new friend that recently sat the medical in Shanghai that they get real up close and personal with a rubber glove while you squat in the middle of the room naked.

JumpX3;
That is a new one but it doesn't surprise me. Nothing on the medical surprises me. I cant wait till next week for my next medical.

My favorite one that most of us know about is the Blood Pressure cuff that is too small, or has worn out velcro. Either they have two locals "hold it in place", or tell you too, with your left hand.

Almost everybody fails that one, unless the young girl that is giving it to you likes you, or is just having a good day. Or maybe she doesn't like you, or everybody that day, in which case EVERYONE fails.

Then you get to wear a 24 hour blood pressure tester that logs your pressure over 24 hours. And maybe that cuff also is too small or worn out. Or the batteries die after 2 hours.

Getting the finger in China? I can't wait

We have had failures for fat liver, and sludgey gall bladder. I wonder what they will call failing "the finger". Stinky finger? Finger too brown? Too loose?

I cant wait for this one.

BTW, someone has to fail the new test. That is why there is a new test.

Yup, I can attest to all of these, too small cuff, you hold it to your arm, 24hr monitor that doesn't work. I have personally done them all. All of this done to chase a nonexistent problem for no reason whatsoever. I even went to Hong Kong to see a real doc. just to make sure, did every test under the sun, when I told him why he just smiled and made a casual joke that "my mainland cousins haven't figured out that a fork and knife and a toilet are better, so what do you expect"
BTY probe, what did you decide to do, did you re-sign or are you heading back to the states?

Yes. The Spring medical check involves the rubber glove treatment, stood in a room with 10 chinese guys while the Doc squats down and spreads your ass cheeks as you bend over, gets a real good look.:{

Talking to my Spanish interview buddy on Skype, he says the hotels are going from bad to worse, they're now moving out to an airport no star which is in a building site, he's just spent 4 days alone in Shenyang, (no cabin crew or FO around), zero english spoken , nowhere to eat, freezing cold, says its the worst job he's ever had in 25 years.

Also said recently an Expat been fined for a heavy landing, name up on the company "hall of lost face shame" website, and will lose some of his bonuses, they have a fining system there based on the QAR, altitude busts are a $12,000 thank you please.

I decided not to join this Ryanair type outfit, I wanted my cash monthly thanks:}

X
 

4 of the latest additions to the expat department “failed” on their last sim check. Back to back. Fired. Several other expat veterans dropped for dead on regular line checks. Months of “jumpseat retraining” to make up for the performance. Public internet shaming on the scheduling page to top it all off.

Humiliating and patronizing does not even begin to describe it, and this in a country that takes “saving face” very seriously.

Reasons for such failures are varied but very far from aptitude, performance, professionalism or personality clashes. Changes to SOP’s and OM’s are regular and NEVER made available to pilots. No emails, notices to crews or postings notifying such modifications to the operation. Reminiscence of a medieval HBO show.

When you see your colleagues getting slaughtered in such a ridiculous and public shows, pondering options is the only way to go. This system seems out of control.

Growth has slowed to a halt. No more airplanes. CAAC leadership is a “transitional” period, hence no more friendly handshakes. New hires are no longer wanted, needed nor required, as the CAAC demands pilots must be on payroll in order to apply for aircraft. Flight and sim checks are now beyond belief. Forget the multiple unrelated emergencies while single pilot. What was then a nightmare is now considered a child’s game. Personal phone calls are still taken during sims and the occasional snooze on the back has too!

If there was not enough grief with the previous simulator circus, schedules, astronaut medicals conducted in appalling conditions, extreme heavy handed fines, a city that charges primary through high school children’s fees over $1,500 per month per kid, inflation that is mind boggling and air pollution that brakes the 500 PI scale on a “hazy” day, it now seems that a heavy dozen of the local and older drivers are also departing on their initiative to other local companies with better human skills. Makes anyone wonder how did it all get to this point if not even the locals can take it anymore.

The sand pit is looking greener every day …

Yeah I heard about the 4 Spanish guys who were failed in the sim :ugh:

Foreigners bad, local hero Pilots good ......

So what about the Hong Kong base for Spring??

b.

Has anyone finished their contract, and received the full bonus money? I believe it should be about now that the first expats started the recruitment at Spring. Just interested.

888
 

Cancelled after CAAC shut down expansion. Try Jet Star HKG....

Then what?
 

Thank you for all the info.
But.. It´s Spring different from the others chinese companies?

Which one has the best human skills if any?

???
 

Hi Cale,

This is a difficult question to answer non subjectively.
Personally I would do a top down assessment, as in, the airline with the least negative comments both public and private is the most likely to have the best approach to dealing with their employees and service providers.

A little back ground on the ops: Spring Airlines seems to be in a different operational league to their competitors as it was formed by very savvy China only tourism industry insiders. This is the only true private airline in the Middle Kingdom and has been challenging the state funded airlines since inception. Equipment and real estate is leased.
Spring Airlines has poached drivers from better funded competitors by paying exorbitant transfer fees for drivers and opted for foreign crews to cover the once needed growth issues.
Needless to say it has created certain animosity in higher circles.
Since, it has formed a huge pool of cadet recruits, trained in the USA with an acceptable English proficiency that makes such poaching of local talent obsolete. The hiring of temporary expat help is now winding down and will be terminated once the momentum created in the lower ranks is acceptable for command. A cadet can move from zero to hero in as little as 2,000 hours cruise time. Until now, expat help provided for some stability in the growth potential while at the same time certain mentorship to the cadets.
The recent growth collapse in the airline expansion has created a huge impact on expectations. Mostly, the until recently pending IPO, now defunct, will determine forward looking challenges. No way to sell shares with no growth and expanding operating costs. Certain routes are being squeezed, others are operating at a loss.
Spring is looking to reinvent itself once again. This is, without a doubt, a great entrepreneurial story. Top management is so, lower is that at best... doing business in China can be anything but business as usual.
Assuming a clean operational and safety record, the next 12-36 months will be very interesting indeed... Spring is boxed. Ribbon placed on top.

Stay tuned!

Hi,
BKK so far is just a rumor to attract foreign pilots. If it happens there would be a long que Starting from those already in Spring. You need at least 1 year in the company as for Osaka and conditions will not be the same as the chinese contract I assume (Osaka diktat again)
Still same old rules (punishments) for QAR's etc. Hotels still not the best.....

Best of luck,

Springa may you explain this??

"At the moment if you sign with the company you make the equivalent of 16000 USD, but you cannot change all foreign currency"

Thanks

I don't understand what are you saying.

They pay you in two parts, one 13000 basic salary, and 3500 for the allowance.
And the thing is that you are only able to convert the 13000, and, what happen with the allowance?

They pay you the allowance in CNY? Or, the banks in Sha are only allowed to convert only the basic salary?

May you go to another bank and convert the CNY to $??

Thanks

Really??

Only able to convert the basic salary... Incredible

And what you have to do with the other money in CNY?

Last question, what about the Bonusses...??? The same as allowance? Or you can convert it?

Really?

No fuel bonus?
No safety bonus?
No loyalty bonus?
No annual bonus?

That's around 40000$/year...

With another Chinese airline but similar situation, we change all our salary on the "black market" (which is more like a usual office downtown), no fee and very reasonable rates.
No problems at all, at least for USD and EUR.
We never even bothered with the official way, even though we get the tax certificates.
Plus you can use your UnionPay card abroad at many ATMs.

For me, it is so easy, let's see

Safety bonus 12.000/year
Travel (reimbursement) 10000/year
Annual Bonus 6000/year
Fuel bonus Aprox 600/month = 7200/year

The amount is 35200/year

Plus
New renewal bonus after 3 years
36000$

That's after three years... around 36000+35000+35000+35000 = 140.000$....

I believe 16.000 every time may be no, but the limit is 11.000$

May be you can send the money with a transfer from Shanghai to your bank anywhere, and take the rest in your pocket

Springa, yes we do, however on our contract our company transfers half our salary in USD to our home country, and only half is paid in RMB.
So we don't bust the 10.000 $/€/£ import declaration limit in our places. We do probably bust the limit for undeclared currency export in China, but no one ever seems to check on that.

In what company are you working Safelife?

Hello guys.
IMHO would be better to stop asking questions about money, change, supposedly breaching tax bank and custom rules and so on. China is a big country, every problem has a solution. That's it. What to know more? Apply, join and ask.
Happy landings.
Joe

Good answer men.

We are here to help each other, not only to complain about everything!!


Happy landings!

Spring ,
I apologize if anyone has found my post disturbing . That said, I can spare your advice about how to use this forum. Maybe you need some.
It isn't wise to write about supposedly illegal acts against the law, be that the PRC law or the country of origin's law. It is also not wise to ask the people about the company they are employed.
This forum is closely watched not only by the good human resource guys that offer nice money for flying shiny A320: it is closely watched also from other kind of good guys.
Anyway, again : there are many options that can solve many problems. In my opinion, nobody is going to explain that to people that are actually outside the middle empire and that haven't started a recruiting process yet.
Just my 2 pennies.
Forgive me if it seems I am not helping on this forum (or maybe I am helping a lot, who knows...)
Happy landings.
Joe

Exactly. We should talk about pilots and airlines, not about custom and other activities that may be found interesting by someone that maybe want to know about taxes and duties, payments, bank transfer and so on.
Enjoy the pool. 😉

Recently joined
 

I am working for Spring now.
For those who would like to join Spring because it is based in shanghai : prepare yourself to stay in Shijiazhuang 4 days then back to base and wear your uniform for another equivalent pattern.

The salary was good ( at least if you are not European , since you will be payed in dollars ) but promised salary increment for pilots who have joined the company 3 - 6 years ago : not happening ; leaves request and flexibility for rosters or personal requests , also in case of very serious problems : zero ( my have been rejected multiple times, more than 10 .... I have given up in the end ) ,

Chinese captains are flying from honquiao and foreign from pudong only , which means an extra “duty” spent in the bus of at least 2 hours per pattern, communication with the company : very poor : either you are on training or released line captain they do not answer your questions ( I tried with foreign office , chief pilot , training ..... they do not know the regulations, often you get different answers and non coherent ) , during the summer prepare yourself to 18 hours duty with delays or more : you fly 2 captains and one first officer with very few landings, often they are unable or not allowed to make even ATC communications but the company uses them to increase the duty, the captain extension of the duty is REQUIRED. instructors professional level and judgement is very poor,

they are very rude and they do not apply even basic procedures , I have been told that nowadays with modern instrumentation it is better to fly with newspaper on the windshields so that you are more fresh at landing. the simulator check is a lottery , mostly foreign pilots do not pass the sim check.


pilots meetings are all about what kind of punishment you will get if you make a mistake , the English level is generally very poor, Chinese captains smoke and sleep in the cockpit , they will touch the FCU even as PM.

Hotels are being improved but still you will find yourself imprisoned with no chance to eat western food in dirty hotel rooms.

So guys : I was working in a professional environment before Spring , and I have to say : for those who like to make some money ( at least in dolllars) at the cost of their professional dignity this can be the right place , but prepare yourself and give me some feedback once you have joined ;)