KAL: Why are they ALWAYS advertising for pilots?
 

Apologies if this has been asked and answered before.....

it seems anytime I open an international flight magazine there are always ads for KAL pilot requirements.... and I mean every week for the past several years if not longer. I don't think KAL has THAT many aircraft on order that it requires so many applicants, does it?

TO me, this really raises a flag about working there.

What am I missing about this.... how can they be interviewing so many pilots and have only nominal deliveries of aircraft coming in?

is it really that bad there that guys are just basically fleeing the company???

Thanks for some honest input here.

Kapitan

The salary is low, the working environment is not very ex pat friendly, there will never upgrade an ex pat F/O. What else do you need to know?

The pay, from what info I have for DEC's is not what I'd call "low". They advert about 14,000 US/month. Plus a commuting contract.....

Kap

This is the offer for 777 DEC and in top of that you have to pay for your own type rating and a high possibility of failing their training.

US$12,600 tax paid per month ($12,760 without
insurance) / $7,800 ($7,960) during training. $135 per
hour over 75 hrs / month (paid off-shore).

Per Diem: US$2 to US$4 per hr / varies per destination.

The place is a revolving door, evidently it is not what it looks like on paper

Thanks Dominican....

So you'd get over 13K a month US with the per diem after tax.... not too bad in my book. BUT there is a reason they keep having to advertise, eh?

Thanks again.

Kapitan

Herr Leutnant
 

Just read the KAL threat here, then sit back, relax and close your eyes and imagine the humiliation explained there. Revolving door is a nice wording....

You see now Korean National Pilots leaving KAL as the climate is hostile. The Senior VP Hwang does not like anybody, not Foreigners (Kal-Jargon) not Jeju-Kadetts and maybe at the end of the day nobody else.... The feedback is from bad to worse.

On the Paper the contract lookes good and the Agent will lie to you until you are there and find out that the paper in the toilet is a higher value then the paper your contract is written on.

You do medical and SIM-screening on Interview, average failiure rate 70%. You pass the Interview and get a offer to pay for your Type-rating and then during the OE (Line-training) You get chopped because you did something wrong. You gave the approach signal at 20.500 feet or 19.000 ft and not at 20.000 feet. Too bad.... no good Captain. You mix the sequence of loading the FMC-preflight, no good Captain. Failure is faster then success..... believe me and others who wrote about KAL in the threat KOREANAIR.

It was nice to work there and now it becomes more fragile and in over 10 years I have seen many likelihoods of People endangered and destroyed because they got lured the last two or three years by the temption to fly a shiny new model Airplane and have seen it for 12 Legs only maybe 14 if they got recommended for the Checkride but failed and could not get a second ride because they did already go a extension in the training and the maximum is 50% extension...... too bad Captain. Nobody defends you, not the Agent not any of the Pilots in the Company, too bad Captain.

Do you have a Job? Do you have a Family? do you want to be out on the road with a high chance of failing? 7 out 0f 8 or 3 out of 4 failing in one course is not unusual. Who´s fault is it ? Are all Pilots in the World so bad that they won´t make it? AirIndia is not a option anymore if you try to gain the 100 hours on Type (B777) as a few years back when the Lad´s went straight to BOM after KAL´s OE and the required 100 hrs under the belt. Quo Vadis.....

There would be more I could tell here but you would not believe me and think I would make it up, talk to people who flew for KAL or who are with KAL, they can give you as well some food for thoughts.

Listen to ATC conversations when your hear them on the Radio.... sometimes you have to guess what is going on and two things at the time cannot be transmittet to some chaps. Just one by one. Go and look into the history book and see what confizian system means. Maybe you get a idea of structure.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

Congrats NG
 

Simply the hard truth.

KAL T&Cs
 

Any current KAL 747 pilots have the straight scoop on what current pay and scheduling is like at the airline? I am looking at the 747 capt contract.

Is it true that you receive 9 consecutive days off per month?

Is it true that you can take your 24 days leave in 2 day increments with your 9 consecutive days off per month?

Do you get confirmed C class seat to and from your designated home on the KAL system each month?

Are there agencies other than Rishworth that can place you with KAL?

Can anyone post a typical monthly schedule here online?

Any punishment schemes in place as seem to be prevalent at Chinese carriers?

Looking to make a move soon so any info you guys in the know can post is appreciated.

Many Thanks for any enlightening responses

Kapitanleutnant...

The salary that is mentioned here (approx 13000.00) is all you get. There is no Loss of Licence coverage, no offshore medical coverage, if you get sick for more than thirty days, you are done. For these items, you must purchase insurance. Some of the agencies will assist you in this, or you purchase your own. A typical contract in that respect I suppose.

The chances of you ever getting overtime is about zero, as they factor your flight time for pay. Many months I have gone over the "75 hours" in flight time but have received zero overtime pay.

..And in my opinion, 13000.00, for this job, is not great at all.



Jbb747 ...

The contracts are essentially all the same for all fleets with the exception of pay. There are some minor differences between agencies. Several exist, Rishworth, CCL, GAP, etc. They are basically all the same. I'm with CCL and the guy who you'll most likely work with there (J.R) is an a.rse,,

Yes, you get 9 days off per month, and 2 days "vacation" which accumulates on a month to month basis. You can string these together each month. The schedulers are quite good at giving you the "string of days" you want each month.

Confirmed Business Class seat to and from home base. (You can switch this "home base" if you wish)

The "75 hour" overtime pay threshold is a bit of a joke. They will factor your flight time for pay purposes, so little chance of ever getting anything.

The per diem is the lowest I have ever received ..

The good thing about this job... It does allow you to live in your home country. That is significant, however I can't really think of many other good points.

Kimcheejones

Kimcheejones
 

Thanks for the reply. How many nights in then ICN Regency on average per month? Layover hotels good quality? Any chance you can give me a sample of a monthly schedule?

Thanks,

JBB747

I doubt anyone will post a roster on this site.

Your rosters will vary from month to month, usually from 75 - 85 hours. If you request it, the schedulers can give you an operating trip to your nominated home base each month... doesn't always work, but can occasionally increase your time at home.

Life on the road is a total bore. You will be on your own 95% of the time. Get a good book.

Kimcheejones

They might soon have to advertize even harder/

Latest chatter on the line ...

Company management approached a senior Foreign Flt Ops manager (R.K.) to assist them in drafting a memo addressed to all foreign crew about the need to reduce our pay!! He refused to do it. Apparently, fuel cost, loss revenue on our Japan routes etc. is affecting the bottom line. And they are targeting our bottom line.

Special ...

Kimcheejones

Re: Commute
 

It's confirmed Biz to work, Coach (upgradable) going home. I've always had Biz or better.

The floodgates to the exodus are opening.

.. Crunk..

Not sure what your contract says, but mine is very specific....

Guaranteed Business to AND from work.

Kimcheejones

... and MORE advertising ....

The assistant to the VP of Flight OP's has just resigned ... from his home!! He quit and didn't return!! This guy has been with the company for a very long time and finally just got fed up with the BS.

I'll bet the management in Flt OP's flipped over this one.

Kimcheejones

Kimcheejones
No one's flipping, RK's move was anticipated somewhat. Word has it that he didn't keep much of silence his intent anyway.
Life goes on, pay stays low, guys keep resigning and the locals are simply overjoyed, on top of the constant supply of desperate drivers from all over the western hemisphere.
Fly safe, judging by some of the recent incidents (I'm sure you know who and when), it won't be long before we see one that pops up on CNN.

KAL Aviator
Could you elaborate on the recent incidents?

Don't be naive guys; rk is approaching 60. KAL human resources division has a policy of dumping management pilots approaching 60 so that upon " retirement " at 60, they are not obliged to pay any big lump sum for leave accrued at the " hefty " pay rates. rk's pay is about 1.5k above normal expat's pay and through his 14 or so years at KAL he has probably accumulated heaps of leave days prior to the recent rules barring accumulation of leave beyond 30 days.
It's a matter of time before they dump him and he's smart.......he looks " heroish " resigning from home at this point in time! It would have been loss of face otherwise!

Flood gate
 

....Breaking News: Another over 10 Years with KAL B777 Ex-Pat left, confirmed by liable sources. He was far from age 60, so not due to pay reduction fear. Just wondering when the metal is parked and C.Y.H. is realizing that he get screwed a second time from the local mates.

Incidents close call´s are happening frequently despite all the efforts FOQA, Surprise Line Check and confidential reporting.

Quite a number of KAL expats are nothing but " shyte ",a bunch of riff raffs and con artists. Our dumb flight admin dept got conned through and through and lost lots of money recruiting fakers who got through the hoops thanks to the camaraderie with the expat management pilots and alteon checkers.
Ideally, KAL should have no more than 10% expats but now we just have too many. Non rated captains should NEVER have been recruited. KAL has become the joke " type rating school " training these non rated fakers who will probabaly jump ship soon now that EK has revised their T & Cs.

Now haejangkuk, pipe down will ya...KAL is recruiting more and more expats. Now whose fault is it? It's because a lot of Korean pilots lack the experience and sophistication in international airline operations! If you are honest; you will cringe with embarassment at the ATC and R/T blunders Korean pilots make all over the show. Pure luck can only go so far!

So, a lot of discussions about the pay for expats, but can anyone post how much the local guys make vs. the expats?

Why is Korean always advertising?

Too many planes on order. A management team that has no respect for it's employees, & a talentless Korean workforce.

These guys are so useless, I will be employed forever. They can't fly &
can't talk. I've got parrots at home with better communication skills. Can
fly better too.

Management constantly putting out memos, for pilots to improve on the radios. They can pump out memos every 5 minutes, won't help, when their
local pilots can't understand English. Enabling these guys to pass the English test by cheating, has backfired.

Haejangkuk, you'll be an FO forever. Still can't do a visual approach.

Gezz, sounds like a great working environment doesn't it?:eek:

I live and work in Asia and sorry but KAL are the stand-out worst for RT standards and lack of aeronautical professionalism.

Descending from 35000ft at 250kts, changing frequency and immediately transmitting - blocking other aircraft mid-transmission. Repeatedly misunderstanding ATC and thus needing clarification. And until recently, crashing aircraft all over the place.

I have many friends who have worked or still work there and they are decent, level-headed types. To a man they all relate stories of an awful culture of failure, unfair treatment of expats, hypocrisy when it comes to flying skill assessment and overall lack of workplace friendliness.

That you can resign from a job after acceptance by KAL only to be terminated for whatever reason they may see fit is appalling.

The fact that haejangkuk could say "KAL should have no more than 10% expats but now we just have too many". is a perfect illustration of why there are problems at KAL. Haejangkuk might also want to have a discussion with KAL's insurers and ask about the requirements for expats, how this situation arose in the first place and what has been done to remedy the culture within KAL that led to so many fatal accidents.

These points and many others would appear to answer the original question of " "KAL: Why are they ALWAYS advertising for pilots?"

Having been here only a short time, I can say that as far as operators are concerned, KAL pilots (locals, not foreigners) are questionable at best. There are exceptions to every rule, I've flown with a few that have been fine. But, as has been stated here, their command of the English language together with awful ATC communications has recently come to be a major issue. .. And that last 100 feet on approach .. GEEZ ..

Kimcheejones

Some insiders on the 7th floor OC intimated that rk would have been unceremoniously sacked because of a landing episode some 4 months ago. Apparently on an F/O's handling sector from ZGGG to RKSI, the F/O's final approach became unstabilized and landing was aborted. Another approach by the F/O again and another waived landing ensued with the heroic rk assuming FULL COMMAND to a final successful landing at close to minimum fuel. rk claimed to have recorded the whole episode on his i-phone for the benefit of the company admin pilots. The company admin management pilots declined to hear or view the i-phone recording but the relevant depts did analyzed the QAR/FOQA items; the question was why did rk let the F/O get into situations WHERE HE HAD TO USE HIS SO SUPERIOR SKILLS to effect a safe landing close to minimum fuel... the conclusion from KCASA advisers was it wasn't that heroic after all!

Classic response from such losers, riff raffs and vagabonds. Need I go further? Sigh, these are the kind oftrash our KAL admin nincompoops recruit into our company:{:{

Why do you not get along with the foreigners H-KUK?

'cause they come and steal his job ...

now back to the original question...
how much do the locals make ???

Payrate
 

There is no direct amount what the locals make. It is a package they get and the numbers circulating on the 7th floor are varying but there are some calculations that the MUC is lower for one ExPat Pilot the a Korean National.

The MUC does not get: Subsidised housing if he wishes, child education support, pension contribution and health insurance with a permanent contract.

The National Pilots end the employment with the 55th Birthday, thereafter they going on contract and get a new employ number.

There are not enough applicants generated within Korea for KAL, so even if Haejangkuk wishes hardly there are just not enough Koreans willing to become a pilot and fly the Airplanes who are on the tarmac. The praised Airforce, Army and Navy had recently extended the minimum time by 3 years so they keep theire Pilots longer and they are not released to the market. Due to KAL´s Management they prefer Asiana in the meantime and then JejuAir and KAL is now the last on the list.

Haejangkuk should look into the mirror: Sachon is a Airbase, how did your Seniors got into KAL in the 90´s? before Greenberg was there? Buddy system worked out well. Some of those are now sitting in key position and defend now morning calm, no changes!

So the number a Expat Captain is making is about 9.200 $ for a B737 Capt, 10.700 $ and 12.700 $ for a B747 / 777 Captain after Korean Taxes. He will get a per diem subject to the destination and can generate average 800 $ per month on top of that.

The contract is not honored and you are not paid as it states in the contract and if you complaint to your agent then he just says that is the way it is. The 4 tickets per year are also not confirmed, they are on STBY base only, difficult with the family whilst on vaccation.

Your money on time, your day´s off secure, the rest you have to put up with, a hostlle environment where you can be sacked every minute.

WOW ...
Why are you guys there ?

Not for long I guess. EK has reverted to earlier " friendlier " productive practices and a lot of ex-EK will be bailing out back to the sandpit.

KAL is attractive for a while when all goes nice and dandy. Once you get sucked into their system and find yourself so constricted in an ever insecure world, you will be dying to bail out. The Korean system is a slave driving type bent on punitive measures to maintain a semblance of safe, orderly operations. Many pilots find this at great costs once the fall afoul of the cookbook system of flying.

Over the past 2 years, there were about 4-5 suicides amongst the cabin crew due the master-slave punitive system of the management to achieve results. Words go around about cabin crewmembers forced to voluntarily buy duty free items to achieve the required quota of sales. Operatios despatch office shifted to the remote air side of the airport leading to ridiculous commuting to and fro prior to flight; all to satisfy the egos of the overbearing chairman and his equally insufferale daughter.

Haejungkik will soon get his wish of seeing dwindling numbers of expats.

Haejungkuk has got it right up to a tee. The way the flight ops vp's adviser did a runner really shows what kind of riff raffs our inept flight admin recruited into the company. Absolutely no class; not one who can claim to be in the big league. Sadly the people mr khan recruited into the company are exactly of this ilk, many with fictional hours and experience making to the big league clearing through the hoops in collusion with expat lcps and alteon checkers. Many can be seen downloading company materials by the tons into their flash drives to be used to con other startup companies or lesser known carriers so they can get into management positions. I am sure mr khan is going to share a lot of good stuff misappropriated from our tech services with his new employers, I hope our inept company admin keep tabs on this.

Sad, so sad it has to be this way. The fact is that all the foreigners in Korean are just as protective of their jobs when the shoe is on the other foot! The ranting Brits, Americans, Canadians, ect. I've seen and heard it all. I do not side with anyone. The reason Korean hires foreign pilots is because there are not enough Koreans. Even the Koreans who wish to train as pilots are made to pay enormous sums of money, with poor chances of joining the airlines. This pprune site is overwhelmingly Western so I am pleased to see others joining in.

Tailstrike?
 

... just off the topic and adding to the wishes that the Korean "Creme de la Creme" Pilots are flying without ExPats on the Fleet: A380 Tailstrike in NRT?? Is that true? Just of the Forum a few minutes ago.

If that is true then the next "close call" is waiting again, I remember a year there where 8 in one season. Then the continues B777 mishaps at NRT.

Good that Admiral Shin and Haejangkuk get the wishes grantet. R.Khan left, you call him what ? What is with the many who resign, pay either 5.000 $ or wait 90 days? not too many do a runner. People leave honest and silent.

The recruitment has now two roundups per month. Just wonder when they learn it.....

Fly safe and land happy.

NG

By the way... I have just two more patterns to go.... out as well then.

Oh dear it did not take long then ,on the fleet reserved exclusivley for the creme de la creme of KAL ,what will they be saying on the 7th floor???

The A380 incident in NRT was an engine pod strike. Here's the link:

Incident: Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike


A few of the posters here seem to think that Foreign Captains/FO's at KAL have "colluded" with the Sim instructors to get qualified. What utter nonsense. And to suggest that any airline in the world would even consider KAL's Operational info to "start up" or support there own operation is enough to make me laugh out loud. KAL has a dismal reputation known round the world. These comments lend more evidence that lateral thought does not come easy for these boys.

Kimcheejones

I have been reading pprune for a number of years and find the posts and threads on Korean Air pretty interesting. Some years ago I had done some external audits on Korean Air and I am very disturbed at the amount of disinformation and misinformation posted on the various aviation chat forum on KAL. During my time there, even the expats there had no real understanding of the airline they work for! Maybe this is a deliberate strategy of the Korean management but I find expat pilots in Korean Air largely ignorant of the assets KAL has available for all the pilots. I noticed expat pilots mouthing off nonsensical negatives but had no idea that they did not know how to benefit from all the good things KAL has. It's just herd mentality and the one lambasting their employer the loudest gets the biggest cheers at the pubs and crew rooms. The one making the most derogatory remarks about their Korean colleagues is made the hero of the day. Totally juvenile if not infantile!

In the course of my audit work there I found KAL had been developing a very good system. Their technical expertise as demonstrated by their flight ops technical services is at par with many leading airlines. The sad thing is the implementation in daily line operations. There is utter disconnect; assets and expertise not utilised for beneficial operational use. Most of their local pilots lack that " something " which can help them integrate the technical expertise the company passed on to them into their professional operations. There are several Korean pilots who do but somehow they are unable to inspire or motivate their fellow bethren to learn from them.

I suspect some start ups or even third world carriers can largely benefit from the materials KAL has. I have done audits on some national carriers with nothing close to KAL's technical capabilities.

I have to agree with some Korean posters' contention that their recruitment department had done an abysmal job in recruiting quite a number of riff raffs. A couple of audit flights with some KAL expats were real eye openers and these expats were from the first world to boot!

Space and time do not allow me to expand on the above but suffice to say the loads of disinformation spouted by misguided or disgruntled individuals do not do the expat pilot force in KAL any favors.