indian nationals on fata
 

Why have the moderators deleted the thread???


agent123 can you please forward the information, we sure can find some place to publish.. after all as you said it was public information...

no matter what moderators of these forums thinks, pilot licenses details are public.. at least in India... and these which have been granted on shady pretexts must be made public for the benefit of all...

agent123 had posted a list of Indian Nationals working on FATA, and at least two of them were not even mentioned in FAA registry and one had no address updated on the registry...

As per 14CFR a FAA certificated pilot cannot exercise privilleges of the certificate unless he has the latest mailing address in the registry..

Its privacy vs safety....

jimmygill,

pls check your PM.

i've uploaded the docs that I got from the DGCA in response to my RTI on my google docs account.


--Agent123

hey agent123, can you pls forward me also the documents u got from DGCA regarding FATA ?

lets do something about this in a united way.

We can gather numbers and pressure DGCA to revoke all these FATAs.

i mean WTF, there are 3000+ CPL holders, and these guys with FAA CPL and doing self sponsored rating without converting their foreign CPL to Indian CPL are being employed.

Im in touch with all members of Unemployed Pilots Welfare Association (UPWA). I'll forward those documents to them too.

agent123 please forward the documents to id "airforce13"

Thread got binned entirely due to your self centred, childish and entirely hypocritical response.

Is the problem in India really a handful of FATA right seaters or the thousands of you, the zombie army, who marched relentlessly to who ever would take your money to qualify for completely non existent jobs?

No due diligence by thousands upon thousands of you, believing every bit of cynical sales patter, stripping families of savings and offering no possible return on that investment in the short and medium term.

And here at PPRuNe Towers what most disgusts us about you, the Indian contingent, is that not one of you has the guts to go on the wannabees forum to tell the truth to the wide eyed and innocent arriving there every week from the sub continent. No reality check regarding the mess in India that they are so desperate jump into head first.

Immature ranting against a tiny, miniscule minority rather than some basic honesty for those trying to repeat the mistakes thousand of you have made.

How very, very impressive.

Rob

Weather we zombies go and spend our monies in flight schools or casinos in Vegas is none of your **cking concern as long as we are legal in what we are doing.

The thread starter merely listed a list of individuals who had been flying in India as expats by influencing the all corruptible DGCA.

Its people like you who make believe that spending a considerable time at 8000 feet pressure altitudes does degrade basic thinking skills.

"I made ma mistake long time back, I am flying a 777 now, son you should stay away from this" thats what you call mature.



Your myopia sees the action as against a bunch of individuals, while its aimed at introducing accountability in the system in which participation of public at large is required.. well keep it under the covers... because its is not upto some dimwit's measure of maturity.

The problem is you are trying to make it everyone's concern. If you are that concerned about the "injustice" being done, why don't you start your own website and get the software to run your own forum? You will be the master of your own destiny in that case and we will not have to keep hearing about how the world is against you.

I have worked in India on several contracts for a rather large aircraft company based in France and to be honest with you, there isn't enough money in the world to make me do any sort of flying in India.

The hypocritical attitudes that are embedded in the culture just never cease to amaze me. Your constant posts are just another example of what I am talking about.

Please take your whinging somewhere else!!!!

It is everyone's concern, one of these jokers will some day fly a A320 in hot summer with more than allowed load and crash. If they have not got in the right seat through competition they are not the best.

It is not mandatory for anyone to read all the threads on pprune. Which forum I use is my choice alone.


That you perceive my posts as hypocritical is indicating your bias. One of the hallmark of hypocrisy is inconsistency, you will definitely find it in Indian culture but not in my posts... hypocrisy is when what you will normally appreciate in your country suddenly starts amazing you when it happens in other countries, especially in a 3rd world one like India.

Oh yes, pprune is just a forum about boasting how one worked on several contracts on a rather large aircraft company in france. Everything else is whinging[sic].

If your arguments can't stand for themselves, thats when you need the force of large-aircraft-company in France.

And no matter how much you want to console yourself, its just the people like you have a small price tag. Not all the money in the world but just a miniscule fraction of it is enough to buy you.

So JG,

A lot of thunder and lightning there. Bluff and bluster really - could it be that all that noise in your two posts is simply intended to hide the fact that you've ignored the salient points made.

Thousands upon thousands of fully qualified but completely unemployable commercial pilots in India

An utterly corrupt aviation administration

A never ending line of shysters and con men inserting themselves in the wannabees path at every point they can extract money.

But, most shameless of all, your nauseating jumping on the band wagon bleating about a handful of FATA right seaters yet never a word on our wannabees forum from a 777 pilot for the hundreds of Indian citizens applying to and already filling the flying schools regarding the hopelessness of what they are doing and the numbers of unemployed already back in India.

So, widebody sage with the best interests of all Indian aviators or or attention seeking, posturing poseur jumping on angry bandwagon of the day? Your posts are full of noise and anger but only on carefully chosen, rabble rousing areas. You know and I know that with every expat sent home tomorrow there would still be no jobs for more than 95% of the unemployed short and medium term. You jump on every available bandwagon to anger the unemployed but never actually get around to telling them the truth regarding what they have done and what they face .

Why is that JG? Our Wannabees forum is full of experienced airline pilots telling the western wannabees the truth about the path they are taking or intent on taking. What cultural difference is it that means you stir the crap in every possible way on this forum but never actually tell the truth to the students and unemployed here? What is it about Indian culture that means no experienced working pilots from your nation are here telling the truth to the wannabees and the unemployed?

Are you essentially just as corrupted as those you rail against?

Right folks,

While Jimmy works himself up into a righteous tizzy of indignation lets all ask ourselves a few questions.

We think about 1500 qualified but unemployed in the UK. We consider that desperate and awful even within a system many, many times bigger and more busy than in India.

Why is it we have threads you can look at right now in the wannabees forum extending to over 100 pages and devoted to warning students over the last 3 years just what they were letting themselves in for?

Why no equivalent here?

Why is it that for the Europeans and Brits the threads were full of posts from experience, working airline pilots giving those on the outside, looking in the truth of what was happening in their company?

Why no equivalent input here?

Why do the wannabees have a long term sticky on schools and their tricks to get more money from you but nothing here?

I've got lots more question to add but you might want to a suggest some of your own. Some of you might also want to place a few pointers and links to the threads on our wannabees forum that show what I am talking about. Some might wonder why they can see posts from Indian hopefuls that never get any form of response from people who have actually qualified and gone through the system. Indeed, you might want to point out the self help that has gone on in this forum regarding spotting and publicising scamsters.

I find it very puzzling that those above you, already within the system provide you, the students and the qualified, with far less information that the expats working in Indian companies. Why do you think that the Brit and European guys get so much information from actual working airline pilots and you don't?

Rob

You see hopelessness for them I don't.



Blaming someone of trying to seek attention on an anonymous forum, you have got some imagination. What is poor anonymous JG going to do with this "attention".

The unemployed will face what they have done and will face more if they sit around. "95% unemployed" you have no clue about aviation here. Don't get too angry I cannot cure your ignorance.


Well! isn't telling that some unscrupulous few can get into right seat without clearing the Indian Exams not enough a 'truth' for you.

Isn't it 'truth' enough that the percentage of expats hired as training captains is way below the recommended standards, and even those who have been hired as TRE/TRI are being underutilised for training activities.

Why would any 777 captain in world only have exact 500 hrs flying time on 777 and quit his/her airline to join as expat in a 3rd wold country, with a corrupt system, dirt, pollution, hypocrisy and children ****ting on streets unless of course those 500 hours are from a pay to fly operator or just have been filled in the logbook and rubber stamped.



You can assume what makes you feel comfortable.

Oh, I see. So now you are saying because there is no competition these "jokers" will crash. Interesting. So, what about you? Did you finish with the highest scores in your training? If not, then you must be one of those "jokers" too. After all, only the best should be allowed to fly.

Your arrogance is amazing. The simple fact is you have no clue on how the real world works. The fact is people meet the standard or they don't. If someone has the necessary qualifications to do the job then they should be allowed to do the job. If you are like the countless other Indian FOs I have flown with you complain about all the Expats in India, but you can't wait to leave and go to the likes of EK, EY, QR, SQ and the list goes on. The whole world is against you. Oh woe is me!!!

You know nothing of where I come from or what my background is. Your arrogance is reconfirmed with your comments and attempts to deflect any negative comments one might have towards you and your attitudes.


What type of drugs are you on? How do you make the kind of leaps in logic (I should say illogic) that you do? I know you are going to tell me that you want to be a pilot for the love of the job. Please, grow up. What I do and what I get paid to do it is of no concern of yours. How dare you make a broad sweeping statement that says I can be bought! One of the simple reasons I will never set foot in India is the constant pressure applied by management at the airlines there to pass pilots who have no business being in a cockpit. That applies to both seats. I don't care who someone's father, uncle, mother, fill in the blank is. If I am not willing to place my family on the aircraft they are flying they need to do something else to make ends meet.

Your resorting to a personal attack just illustrates how desperate you are in trying to justify your actions. Should anyone critise you there will be a price to be paid. I hate to tell you but I have had worse things said by better people than you.

AMF!!!!

Of course only the best. You are right I finished with the highest scores. But the guy with the lowest score is flying the jets.

This is how it works, there are people like me and you, I am in this real world, the real world is not some imaginary place which excludes me. If the Emiratees, Qataris and Singaporeans don't want expats, I am with them too.

Either raise up all the walls or raze them all down, no one way preferential entries please. Razing the walls is going to be difficult so I chose to erect on my side of the world. If all the walls are up I hope the futility will be revealed. Its not the whole world thats against me its just the expats.

Same applies to you, you know nothing of me or what my background is.

Ever heard of tit for tat. If you hurl a stone at me, I am not gonna throw flowers at you.



My actions need no justifications. You would have got a better treatment had you stuck to the standards which you expect other to treat you with.

And when you say that people better than me have said worse things to you, I don't doubt a bit of it.

JimmyGill, i understand your anger but these guys are right. And there is no point in bashing each other on an internet forums, nothing will change.....

Indian aviation is very much corrupt so this matter is not really a surprising one. Many of us airline pilot here in India are well aware of this kinda situations and there are even more worst things going on within the industry. The unemployed pilot situation is going out of control, each year the thousands are adding up and its very much clear that some of these thousands will never make it as pilots even if the hiring picks up.

And also the unemployed pilots will be more concerned about finding a job than to waste their time looking for pilots who got in with influence or this flying on fata. Even if they do there wont be much hope in this corrupt system, NO offense to the unemployed pilots in India but you guys have no power at all and cant change anything less inside the system because you haven't even got into it in the first place.

Oh, you are accountable to no one. Why am I not surprised.

You should consider this advice. And you should get a life!!!

AMF!!!!

Here you go jumping the guns again, and assuming that vserian's advice is applicable to me. I remind you, you have no clue about my employment situation.

You are 100% correct. And better yet, I could care less!

I do have a question for you. In my current position, among other things, I am involved in screening DEC for an airline. I recently screened an Indian National who was a 320TRI for a privately owned Indian Airline who's headquarters are in Mumbai.

If things are so great why would he want to embark on a commute of at least one connection, in excess of 24 hours travel time one way and have 10 days off every 21 days?

Funny thing is we didn't take him because after doing a little checking it seems he had doctored his certificate and when we did a little further digging it seems there were some issues with his current/former employer.

I am still trying to figure out just what your point is, but I have so many other things to do......:ugh:

AMF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JG ...thats funny "you have no clue about my employment situation."

Unemployed sitting at home being a bitter twisted person behind a keyboard isn't a a recognised job when I last looked.

But seriously Jim your funny. .... I love reading your posts you never cease to amaze me how much hatred and at the same time how much stupidity can come out of a person. Keep up the good work at amusing us !

Let me try and get this straight in my head!

So JG you DO have a FLYING JOB in India and you are upset that there at INDIAN nationals who are flying on FATA licenses?? WHY???

And if that IS that case, you would like DGCA/someone out there to throw out these indian guys and thesejobs should be given to foreign nationals (expats) who should then be allowed to come in on fly in India???
Is THAT your masterplan?? I dont mean to look down on you I am just curious as to what your intentions are here...

I think after the THROW EXPATS OUT IF INDIA thread this is the most incredibly confusing thread I have come across!
(P.S. let me clarify right now that I am ALL for Expats being in India, I have learnt more about smarter flying technique and safe operational procedures from them than senior Indian captains; most of whom do know how to fly but none seem to know how to pass on that crucial knowledge to another pilot for some reason!!!)

And Jimmy are you serious when you say :
How can you even say that specially if you are in the industry?? Where in our present setup can we absorb all these guys and girls who are coming back with the 250hrs in their logbooks with no GA/negligible corporate or aircharter ops! Last I heard we are up to CPL 10500 in the good books of the DGCA.

Think about it; 1929 JRD Tata held CPL 1.. Till the late 90s the number was less than 3000 and now in a span of 10 years we have 7000 plus and more are returning. How in the world do you see Indian aviation giving jobs to everyone specially now that the Lot that got in the 2006-2007 are up for command and filling in the spots held by expats???

Even simple crew requirement calculations will show that you need as many as 1400 aircraft inducted tomorrow to even give these guys a shot and that is if they are still current and upto the task. Most of the my fellow trainees have not even been inside an aircraft in the last 3 years since they got the license..:ugh:

We all know how India works. I call a spade a spade and most people dont like it but here goes.
You know who crib about others getting in through influence??
The ones who dont have any! :D

If you could get someone to help you in, you wouldnt cry about it and believe it or not its the same ALL OVER THE WORLD! I have said this before and I will say that again. If your father was senior captain/manager or you knew the Chief Pilot in AI/9W/KF/6E wouldnt you too have the same leg up. Happens in EVERY profession.

If you are naive to think thats not so, well i guess no one can convince you. Is it fair that only those who have money and can pay for TR are getting hired right now? Maybe, Maybe not, but airline business is just that a BUSINESS!
If an airline can get a pilot who is willing to pay for it, and right now there is not dearth of such pilots in india, why would they spend a penny on you even if you are freaking best pilot in the world??

Aviation has always been WHO YOU KNOW initially and then WHAT YOU KNOW! Like it or lump it.

You come across as a guy who never did a lot of research into HOW the line works. You might be "passionate" about flying and have the "right stuff" but your entire argument sounds like its coming from someone who is now disillusioned coz others beat him to that jet job!

Rather than working here to forming a alliance to get DGCA to throw out some 10-20 odd guys who spent pots of money, it will be worthwhile to try and get the DGCA to have more practical and realistic standards of flight crew licensing and training and evaluation! :ok:

Cheers..


I live by a code and the code is simple: Dont hit something you din plan to hit and even then be gentle for heavens sake!

JG, I understand your anger, unfortunately the rot and corruption is systemic. The FOs on FATAs are few and far between and I doubt a witch hunt is going to solve the unemployment crisis. Regarding the skill set of these FOs, some are excellent while a few leave a lot to be desired (i.e. typical of the competence levels of FOs found in India).

Reckon I am qualified to make the above observation, being an Indian national flying the A320 in India as a line Captain on an Indian ATPL. My previous jobs included working many long years as a FAA CFI (Flight Instructor) and later as a Regional Pilot, in North America. Years of hard work before I moved into the A320. However I cherish every single one of these years, because I believe I became a better person first, and maybe even a better pilot!

I did forget to mention, I sponsored my own Flight Training, and my US Bachelor’s Degree (read-NO Bank/Family loans) by working on Merchant vessels for 10 years soon after High school.

After 3 years of flying in India it’s time to head back to the US. The small mindedness, pettiness, sense of self-entitlement, unscrupulous, un-professional behavior I experience, leaves me little choice. In India way too much importance is given to getting the job, often employing practices that are not above-board. It’s almost like the get rich quick Nigerian 419 scams! Pity, this country has potential; unfortunately it will never be realized.

We seem to forget that at the end of the day all that really matters is going home to the wife and kids and giving them that all encompassing hug and kiss!

Its very much true that many 250hrs guys will never make it as pilots in India. Even if Airlines starts to hire like in 2006 there would be still thousand of guys without jobs. Sad but true....

He will like to embark for the commute for the same reason as hundreds of pilots are willing to embark on a commute to India. May be they have shady certificates too, may be they have issues with their earlier
employers too.

My point is exactly the same which is making so many people angry here.


@challenger05
Well my code is even simpler: Don't worry too much about collateral damage.
And yes as far as the statistics and employment is going to be, we will come back
again sometimes later, cause only time will be the test.

Haven't had a good laugh like this in a while......too funny. THANKS!

May I summise?
1. The experienced pilots (Indian and expat, TRE/I, Capt & FO) with jobs with first hand experience within Indian aviation are all wrong;
2. The Moderators of this forum with extensive experience of such topics (reading, screening, seen it all before: extensively) are all wrong;
3. The other forums from the ME, Dunnunda & Godzone, Nth America, Fragrant Harbour are all wrong whereby those WITH EXPERIENCE offer their knowledge and advice on airline hiring, how get that first job, who to avoid, where to go, what to do to get it;
4. The key into airlines from shiny CPL (with NO commercial experience) to pretty jet is to remove those with those jobs by forming a union to act as a witch hunt, lobby the government, name names of those they deem not worthy and hence in their birthright job.

How'd I go?

In the words of the Great Homer Simpson: "All the world is stupid but me."

@topup

please dont comment unless you really know about the horrible truth of Indian aviation sir.
Even though we are talking about only 12-15 FATA Indian FOs, those 12 to 15 vacancies are to us wannabes, what water is in a dry desert to a thirsty and tired traveler.

None of the airlines which have recruited since 2008, have ever advertised that anyone with any ICAO CPL can apply for jobs as trainee FOs. It is clearly mentioned in EVERY bloody advertisement that Indian National with Indian CPL and Indian FRTOL and Indian Class 1 medical is MANDATORY for applying for job as trainee FO.

you people come from so called "first world" countries. Can you not udnerstand something as simple as this ?

I congratulate agent123 and jimmygill for bringing out this issue.

we will fight tooth and nail and see to it that those guys who got in through shady means without converting their foreign licences to Indian CPL, are kicked out left, right and center.

I dont CARE whethere or not I get a job after chucking them out. The only thing Im bothered is that THOSE FATA Indian FO guys need to be kicked out with pressure and lobby from media and political channels. (dont worry I know how to get such things done. Im not looking for advise on that here.)

LET ANY FELLOW INDIAN CPL HOLDER GET THAT JOB IN PLACE OF THOSE WHO TRIED TO GET IN THROUGH THE BACKDOOR UNDER THE GUISE OF EASY FAA + FATA.

That is our short term goal for now. Happy ?

Though we dont really have to spell out our agenda and plan of action, since u were so curious, here's what we plan to do :

1. Out of all the expats woking in India (based on FATA RTI records), 85% are line captains and only 15% are TREs, TRIs.
this clearly shows that Indian nationals are not being upgraded fairly.
if expats are really being hired for bringing inexperienced Indian nationals upto to their "so called first world standards", then there should have been more TREs and TRI expats !! why so many line captains only ?????

2. there are many expats commanders with ONLY 200 to 500 hours time on type, AT THE TIME OF JOINING THE AIRLINE, and ZERO HOURS CAPTAIN HOURS ON TYPE.
clearly shows that there is extremely shady and underhanded dealings going on with expat recruitments and contracts from these bloody creepy recruiting agencies.
there are expat FO's who have bought their type ratings and paid commission also and are literally BUYING COMMAND HOURS and UPGRADES.

Commercial Experience is obtained only after the commercial license. Otherwise you are completely right, thats the key.

In order to protect your job (of course not in as shiny jets as we are talking of), someone else had lobbied long time back... if only USA visa regulations allowed Indian students to to instruct after getting the CFI certificates at US schools, thousands of USA CFI would have been jobless... you are acting like a kid who has a candy and gets perturbed when another one merely tries to get one.. doesn't suit your age and qualifications...


@pree
Most of these 15% have to function more like line captains then TRE/TRI. Why upgrade an Indian F/O if you know in 2-3 years he will leave for SQ, EQ et al.

guys,
for those of you who think that airlines are NOT doing enough to upgrade FOs to capts, let me tell you it is so not true! most of the airlines (if not all) are doing their best to upgrade copilots.

airlines have started expanding again and the reality is that there are not enough capts available! so we will see more exapts (capts) flying for jet, spice, indigo and KF atleast for the next 3-6 years...

the reality is that india as of now is not ready to do away with expats...not for the next 3 years atleast
cheers,
google

so how does that explain the 20 to 30 odd Indian nationals who are flying on FATA as first officers in India ?
Some who have got FATAs very recently through obvious shady means.
(All of them with less than 250 hours TT and ZERO JET TIME while joining Kingfisher and Indigo airlines )

All those who have been calling us twisted and bitter creeps .. answer this simple question :

1. Would you rather want to be flying with a fresh FO who has EARNED his way to the right seat through unbiased and fair COMPETITION ? .. or would you rather fly with a guy/girl who has bribed his way to the right seat, or by using connections ?


2. If you still have no problems in these several Indian national guys/girls flying on FATA as FO, then why not do away completely with the Indian CPL ?? ... lets just have validation of foreign CPLs and allow anyone and everyone to be given an equal opportunity through fair competition.
Let merit prevail.

Lets face it. All these Indian nationals flying on FATA right now as first officers do not have even an Indian SPL.
They have never attempted DGCA exams or have failed in those exams in multiple attempts and have resorted to using short cuts to get to the right seat.

Therefore we are going to use our own methods (HOOK OR CROOK) to put these guys where they RIGHTFULLY BELONG .. (ie. ALONG WITH US IN THE LONG QUEUE FOR JOBS)

Quick question

According to the dgca rules for an issue of FATA for co-pilots on aircraft having AUW exceeding 5700kg they need the following

b) as co-pilot, the flight crew should have:-
i) Minimum 100 hours on type as P2, or
ii) Minimum 500 hours total on multi-engine, or
iii) Minimum 1000 hours total flying experience

How many of these Indian nationals have that kind of experience .

If not isnt it a violation of the dgca CARS to issue them an FATA ?

good point cyrilroy21,

to answer your questions :

NONE

YES !

Agent123 has forwarded me the excel spreadsheets he got from DGCA and it clearly mentions the experience levels of those Indian FATA FO guys.

NONE OF THEM MEET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR ISSUE OF FATA !!

So, guys, you can see the writing on the wall!
these guys have got their FATAs ILLEGALLY obviously by using money and JUGAD.
It's upto all of you.
We can sit and do nothing about it like mute spectators hopelessly, while these guys happily fly jets........
...............OR ...............
we can get together and do something to get rid of the whole lot of them.
This is where we really need to support our fellow members like agent123 and jimmygill for bringing to light this issue.

pree,
FOs on FATA has nothing to do the capts requirement in the next 3-5 years....I dint mention anything on FATA at all....My point is about the capts requirement and the current upgrades happening....apologies for posting it in the wrong thread.. I agree completely that FATA guys (Indian FOs) shouldnt be flying...

However, from what I know, no new FATAs were issued by DGCA to Indian FOs after Oct 2008....only renewals happened (I could be wrong here)...And yes, there are only a handful of guys remaining on FATA now.....You mentioned guys getting FATA recently...whats the source of that info? are those new guys or guys who got FATA renewed?

Where ANY pilot has been put into a role that he'she is unqualified for then action MUST be taken. In this sense I agree with your actions: but how you go about your actions is in question. The media should be the last option when all other proper means have been exhausted.

This is actually refreshing to see you, the unemployed CPL holders, getting off your tails and doing something. I trust you are doing the same with your study and applications to seek experience on any aircraft anywhere you can, not just India.

Next, I trust you take the same action against the corrupt officials who cut pathways for their sons/daughters to gain employment over yourselves.

Next I trust you'll also do the same to expose the fraudulent and corrupt officials siphoning the salaries received from the airline/government for the expats.....one of the main reasons for resistance to the concept of removing them.

Then I trust you'll also expose the fraudulent training practices keeping unsafe and dangerous pilots in the LHS and RHS of these jet transports.

In the mean time I hope you out the same effort into studying for and searching for a job, any job in aviation, anywhere to gain the experience you simply do not have. If not, then everything that the Moderators and others wrote here is proven true.

Or will you just settle for a polarized view of ignoring everything else once you have achieved the job you see as better deserved for yourself? And I will admit in many cases perhaps rightly so.

Pree.... you are showing your remarkable immaturity and lack of knowledge. It is understood that the expat Capts are paid $15 k per month by thge airline/government. The agency takes it's cut ($800-$1200 I believe). The expat gets $10.5 k of that the rest. Where does the rest go? Siphoned to the self implemented "management fees" paid to themselves in the expat management offices. Oh... but you've done your research on this topic haven't you! Also, a pilot with say 6000 LHS hrs on a 767 (15000+ hrs TT) and < 200 hrs on a 777 I believe more than qualified!!! "IF" he/she also meets local employment requirements. Again, polarized view points based on immature anger and frustration, not facts. Put the same effort into getting a job anywhere and it doesn't have to be a pretty jet!!!

An Aussie pilot started a thread asking for advice for low time pilots seeking work in Asia. He was considering trying to get work on a turbo prop but happy to go anywhere, anyhow for a basic C152 job. He was shouted down by some here (Jimmygill & others) and told to stay in his own backyard. Wow! A kid is willing to pack his bags, leave home, sacrifice so much just to get experience anywhere, anyhow. Yet so many of you in the Indian sector flat out refuse to do the same, ie fly a prop or seek work outside your own country / leave your comfort zone. A kid who also paid for his training, is in debt, etc is told to stick to his own side of the street and not look for jobs that so many of you deem below you (props in remote regions and parts of the world).

See ya kids! I'm with the Moderators on this one! What would those of us with a few decades of experience know??

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the most ignorant and naive person in the world. When I turned 21 I couldn't believe how much he'd learnt in 5 years." Mark Twain

Why Pilots leave India
 

The single reason why pilots leave their own country, other than unemployment is to save on TAXES. Which in India I hear are amongst the highest .
Second many private airlines have a day to day roster, even for long haul, except maybe Jet Airways.
Hence with ten days off, after 24 hr commute may actually improve Q O L

@ TopTup
I am not against guys packing their bags and doing rounds for a job and I believe that many other guys in this forum are also like that. In fact we're all on this forum looking for a job opening in any corner of the world.
But what you saw in that thread was just reality. You know how things work in India and you know how much chance an Aussie kid would stand with 200hrs and a 152 rating. So I think the guys were just telling him how things are done here.
But at the same time I've to say this. Even though he was told the reality, I think our sub continent boys were a bit too harsh in telling him that.

One more reality is that there are not enough first officers... if they upgrade and put these first officer for command training they will have to cancel many a flights... not as much due to lack of captains but due to lack of first officers.

And don't tell me that AIR India doesn't have upgradeable first officers to replace the three expat first officers on 777.

Its also very evident that few airlines have been making new recruits wait almost 2 years to initiate F/O training.

I have data on them, of course people here will not like all the names printed..

Of course they will stay, but we want a higher percentage (40% or above) of TRE/TRIs. Else these waves of expansion will be coming like usual and extensions will precede perceived expansions.

TopTup, you arrange for job and the VISA I will send Indian CPL holders in hundreds. Do we have a deal here?

Despite the VISA and TSA hurdles there are still a lot of Indian CFI working in USA for dirt cheap pay* packets just to get the flying experience. OF course a lot of them are illegals and a good proportion on F1 VISAs at incredibly expensive schools.

The world is not under any obligation to be in consonance with your wanton experiences. Do not generalize from your experience.

Your trust is well placed. But our first task is to get the entry field leveled. Lobbying is not a gainful employment and in India we do not have unemployment benefits.

*Reduced to real terms, the pay packet is just for name, the whole thing is actually a hidden pay to fly.

JG: "TopTup, you arrange for job and the VISA I will send Indian CPL holders in hundreds. Do we have a deal here?"

This is my point precisly. Why must others do it for you guys? Pilots from America, Canada, NZ, Australia, UK, etc have for many years found work in remote parts of the world such as Africa, Papua New Guinea, lesser developed parts of Europe (many of the "stans") to get a start. They did it themselves, driven by passion and determination. They still do. They organized their own visas and airfares and live in conditions that are surprising at best, just to get that step into the door, those hours of experience that are GOLD. I have no standing on other country's immigration laws and work permits so can't help you there! So instead, do what the others do and find the countries you can work in and target them!!!! The world does not begin and end in India.

(See previous threads on this forum on the topic of going overseas for a start).

Good luck with your agenda. I sincerely mean that. I just hope it is not polarized into a self-serving agenda stopping the second your own (members of this union) personal needs are met and ignoring the bigger picture of what really goes on and prevents others to gain rightful employment.

It will not.

My precise point... its possible to get a work VISA in south east asia, *stans and most remote parts but not in USA, NZ, CANADA, Australia and UK. Now we are merely talking about restricting that free supply of VISA on a quid pro quo basis. If I could legally have worked in USA doing instruction flying I would not be too worried about people coming here and flying on the basis of very experience which I and others have been denied in these expat's respective countries.

I don't want a Mexican to fly in India unless Mexico allows Indians to fly in Mexico. Period.

Every body with CPL starts with 200 or 250 hrs.. what matters is availability of venues for flying.

Ok, so now I am confused. On one hand you say you would gladly move to the US to get experience, but then on the you say you can't legally accomplish that. Why? You have made reference to other Indian pilots who do that and you have at least one Indian pilot who did that, returned to India and left again.

Are you for real? You simply want everything handed to you. You don't want to work hard like everyone else! How do you get this sense of entitlement? Or better yet, what gives you the right to demand it?

Like I said before, you need to get a life!!! If you spent this much time, energy and venom getting a job you wouldn't be posting these idiotic postings on this fourm.

But, with that said, it is great entertainment!!!:ugh:

AMF!!!

God knows where these 2 clowns JG and Pree are getting their info from, but there definitely aren't 20-30 Nationals on FATA. When I worked at Indigo there were only 7 on FATA (from 2008-2010) and now there are 3 of them and all 3 of them are in the process of getting their Indian licenses. So you can try all you want to get these guys fired, but that won't happen as they already have a couple of thousand hours on the A320 now. Out of that 2 of them are already leaving Indigo for greener pastures. I know KF has a few F/O's still on FATA...but again that does not total 20 for sure. Don't know what info DGCA is releasing...

sky