Why only few pilots join Vietnam now?
 

Hi to everyone.

As far as I know, Vietnam Airlines needs pilots so badly recently, for 777/A330...etc. If you join as FO, you get 8000 something in the first year, and then 9000 something after first year's service. The salary is quite good in fact,and the living cost is Vietnam is really nothing, though no other financial benefit is available. Also, Vietnam people is really friendly to foreign pilots, this is important.

So...I really cant understand, why not many pilots(PIC or FO) want to join VA now:confused: I heard that VA will delay the 3 new A330 to join, cause there are just not enough pilots for A330....:ugh:

If you know any info about VA now, please advice. Because I'm considering to apply, seriously! Thanks :ok:

I'm watching, but the commute home to the western hemisphere plus the cost is a bitch!

I m 777 driver and waiting for parc aviation screening...no news ...

Why they dont take NTR pilot?
 

If they take Non Type Rated PIC, like KAL, I will consider seriously to apply.

a320sho

I have friends joined 777 via parc....but its the end of last year. And after that, no more 777 pilots join VA via prac....

Contract length.. I would love to join them and have a over 1000 hrs on the A330 but am unwilling to sign a 5 year contract to do it.. Too many other good deals out there.

I'm sorry Grace.Lee, but I'm a bit confused. Your appearance is that you're in Taiwan and are pilot thinking that you'd like to join Vietnam Airlines.

However, your only three postings seem directed at finding out why VN Air cannot seem to recruit qualified wide-body pilots (A330/777).

Pardon me, but these questions do seem like they may be coming from a person inside VN Air, or one of the agencies, and are intended to find some answers while remaining anonymous.

For example, if you were just "...considering to apply..." why not simply read the several thousand other postings about VN Air already existing on this site?

Some others.....

"...VNA delaying delivery of 3 A330's..."? The company has never publicly said this, and has not indicated this to any current pilots. Shall we assume that you know something that those of us here don't know?

"...Vietnam people is really friendly to foreign pilots, this is important..." Although this was once true, it is becoming further from the truth each day and all the expat pilots at VN Air know it.

"...and the living cost is Vietnam is really nothing..." The only people who still believe this are the Vietnamese. Actually, the cost of living in Vietnam has exceeded that of both Hong Kong and Singapore! Both HCMC and Hanoi are internationally documented as two of the worlds most expensive cities to live in.


I respectfully suggest, that if you (VN air) are really interested in finding out why pilots are not interested in joining VN Air, you should begin by asking the pilots currently on contract, before they too leave.

It's true life is quite expensive in hcmc or hanoi if you want to rent a nice flat or a house for you and your family..school , medical insurance,saving for a decent retirement pension is also to consider...
there s no secret if the pay is good and not lowered if the contract agencies are fair and vna people kind there will be a lot of people i m sure!
:ok:

Does anybody know how long the A320 FO's position will be available? I've done my ATPL and after two months of the check the ****** spanish DGAC didn't issue my license :(

A320 positions seem to be available almost continuously with brief periods where recruitment is on hold.:)

Many thanks! It seems that Parc pulled from the A320 FO hiring although they still looking for A320 captains, and 777 and 330 crews. It seems that the only decent option left is DPI

VAC is now hiring, and doin SIM assessments. I believe not so many chaps make it. The mortality rate to my knowledge would be around 50%:ouch::sad:. So, I believe that's one reason why not so many chaps are joining VAC.

To counter what electrojet said, on a couple of points.

Vietnam is nowhere near as expensive as Hong Kong or Singapore. An "expat" apartment can be had (1-2 bedroom) for 550-1300 dollars. A 3 bedroom house very close to work, in a nice neighborhood goes for about 800. Singapore and Hong Kong the same apartment would be 2500-3500 USD.

Food? If your maid cooks for you every day you can eat like a king for 200 a month per person. If you eat out at "expat" places, like I did, it costs about half what you would pay in a US city, and a quarter of what you would pay in London, Paris, or Singapore. Hong Kong food prices are similar to the US. Singapore are higher than London or Paris.

Expat schools are expensive, I think over 1000 per month per kid. I think the same just about everywhere in Asia.

Overall a fairly cheap place to live. Housing has gone up, but is now coming down.

Really want to live on the cheap? A local girlfriend can get you a real deal on an apartment or house, and local prices on everything.

Locals? The fairer sex is very friendly. The others not. I spent 6 months going to mostly Vietnamese places. I finally got tired of being treated poorly. Not to worry, there are lots of expat restaurants and bar with awesome food and service. I think expat asians get treated better than westerners overall.

Vietnam Airlines treatment? Show up on time, do your job without causing problems and you get treated very well. Far better than most US airlines, including the one I used to work for. I would definitely consider going back to VAC if my next gig doesn't pan out.

Prozac;
Wow, great idea, but it was already tried, and failed. Several guys came to VAC from Air India as 777 FO's. They falsified their credentials. They were "cruise pilots", and never sat in "the seat" during TO or Landing. Or actually TO or Landed. The Capts they flew with recognized that they had no idea what they were doing. Most, or all, have been fired.

I think every section of PPRUNE has a section for WANNABEES. You might want to read up on it. You sound like a wannabee.

Thanks for all these info:ok:

I'm not a "SPY" from Vietnam Airlines....
I work for a small airlines in asia now...I'm new to the contract world, and I'm not really familiar with the "deals" provided by each airlines. For me, 8000 something USD per month for a 777/330 FO is unbelievable! That's why I wonder how come VA seems like never has enough pilots. For KAL, there're lots of updated info on PPR, so its easy to understand why expats dont go to KAL. But for VA, most of the info is actually pretty old, and not many pilots talking about VA now....which worries me if I should try VA or not....

i refused to attend the selection process on A330 because...

if you take out 2000usd for an average pension plan from 8800usd (8800 is the average monthly pay for the 3 year contract proposed by parc or rishworth) then you subtract 1000 (cheap) for a 1 bed appartment you get 5800usd /4300€ per month...the same as any many other long haul airlines...so why moving if you already have a permanet contract in europe/usa?

DPI conditions
 

I found out the conditions offered by DPI for A320 FO, including the "housing allowance" is 6.490 USD that is substantially lower than Parc 7.155 USD. This is a 665 USD difference per month!
If we do not apply with these new conditions they may do something about it, so I'm going to hold and if Parc gets in the game again or there is a substantial improvement I'll apply, I really hope so... It would benefit us If the ones who can afford to wait would do the same.

After all that has being said about Rishworth I don't consider them as an option.

I got selected for Vietnam and Wataniya.....still in a big confusion as to where to go....Does Vietnam have an upgrade policy for A320 F/O's. I have heard conflicting stories on that. Anyone have updates and advice on this matter please do reply. Thanks guys.

sky

PROBUSMC:

I emailed an expat Capt at AI about your claim of the AI FO's because a few years ago I met most of them. He says you're facts are WRONG. He said (as he understands it) that one was let go but others are there at VAC, respected and doing well.

Is this true, or are you just a conceited WANABEE hero racing this industry to the bottom, ie your level? Or, are you a kiss ass trying to cementing a place at VAC like others are who have?

You come across therefore as a lying fool spreading gossip and B.S. Yep, this is a rumour forum, but NOT a place to slander your fellow pilots[/B]. This is a world wide forum. There are another 5 or 6 AI former FO's at Qatar doing very well. They rised above the misery they were in due to their experience and integrity it seems. Now ar$eholes like you seek to slander them.

There are enough ignorant fools in the world who can't wait to slander others to make themselves feel more important. Looks like we've found another.

After all, I wonder what your FO's (or Capts) would say about you? You're a coward. A fool and whats more a liar. You hide behind anonymity on a worldwide forum to spread lies. Have you a spine at all?

Those AI FO's at VAC deserve your support just for being there as a colleague. You prefer to rely on lies and bring them down despite never meeting them, flying with them (if you are a Capt?) or checking your FACTS first. What a great guy you must be to fly with!

So, back to the thread:
Why only a few pilots are joining VAC now? It appears because there are expats like YOU at VAC that would deter any pilot from wanting to share a cockpit let alone could trust over a beer after landing.

TOP UP
 

all 4 were second officers, admitted when they were cornered, one left after his first flight after arguing with the vice president of the airline, (not a wise thing to do) the second ones contract was cancelled last moth, 2 more are still hanging on and trying hard and might be able to make it.
there is no reason to bring the 89 story up again and insult others.:ugh:

Mach .84,

Fair call & edited as a result. Apologies. Blindly mentioning issues passed on to me by a 3rd party isn't right. I'm not of that part of that world, but been around long enough to know enough about it through numerous contracts and beers around the world.

BUT, that doesn't make a cowards denigrating words about those colleagues he flies with any better. Scum in my eyes.

I'm not a part of aviation in Vietnam but despise all pilots backstabbing each other. This guy "PROBUSMC" is less than spineless......

But sorry Mach .84, you're wrong. Have you EVER face to face asked one of these guys the truth? BUT!! Never let the TRUTH get in the way of pilot egos! Or are you relying on incestuous rumor to support an idea? The FOUR from AI? I was told one was ex ANZ (on L.W.P.) and from Jet Airways? Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to have already blown A LOT of credibility out of this B.S.

As for the ways and means of them being dismissed, I have no idea but will never rely on PPRuNe for an ounce of truth!

When it comes to a person's professional integrity be armed with FACTS. DO NOT use this cheap forum as a means to denigrate your colleagues.

By the looks of it VAC is not expat friendly when this is the quality of expat charactor at the airline.

Pilots: worse than housewives b!tching to put each other down by backstabbing and gossip.

And integrity: something your father may have mentioned once but lost in the race to the bottom.

Toptup;
Neat thing about these forums. They come with a search function. Searching on "Toptup" yields threads that you have posted on. Lots of positive posts. A lot like the previous couple as well.

In one Air India post you claimed to work at AI. That would mean that you have first hand knowledge, so why would you email an AI Captain to find out the truth?

Or maybe you are one of the remaining FO's from AI? And maybe you have a vested interest in hiding the truth?

Comments? I am sure there will be!

Speed and Angels on the left

You're right - a final comment as this thread has been over run too much....

By your "research" principles a volcano in Iceland started the world only a few weeks ago. After all, heaven help anything of depth get in the way of a misguided agenda to prove the world is flat. Also by your logic, I am presently working in HK, I am also working in the Middle East, while having a part time job in Australia AND still work in India despite so much of my time being in the US. As I have posted on these forums very recently as well!

To save you the effort, I resigned from AI (off an RAL contract) long ago. I was a TRE on the 777 and resigned due the systemic corruption and standards they tried to force me to bow down to. (You didn't bother to dig that far did you? Flat earth theory....) Hell, even if you read my posts above you would have noted that I "once met most of them [the AI expat FO's]". I knew of the 9W pilot due working with him there for a brief time. Stop me when the logic kicks in.....

So, because I no longer work there I contacted a colleague who does to gain some perspective on your comments. Unlike you I sort clarification before posting. (You must be one difficult guy to teach in a ground school! :ugh:)

But don't worry, I'm typing this slowly for you.

Also, as stated, I do not work in that part of the world, ie not for VAC. (I don't seem to be able to spread myself that thin owing to the other jobs you may believe I must have by your definition, as above). So, an FO at VAC... Hmmmm? Regain 25-30 years of my life (nice), back on an FO's salary and get to fly with the likes of you? My integrity can't be sold for a fountain of youth and the price to pay for it (ie working with you).

You'll find I have posted many similar frustrating comments about cheap cowards spreading lies and ignorance via this forum. You want your ego untested and hope for your nasty & conceited opinions to go unfounded at the expense of others. That is my eyes is the mark of a slanderous coward.

And it is because of guys like you that I believe pilots seeking a contract at VAC may wish to consider the (expat) company they could be involved with. I only hope you are the exception.

So, I'll state it again for those of your calibre: This forum is NOT a place to slander your fellow colleagues.

Good luck with that conscience of yours.

Apologies to the person who started this thread for diverging but to allow spineless cowards to put down their colleagues based on idle gossip is wrong. I'll leave it there.

Topup,
I think your comment is a little bit over the” top”. Why are you so upset about this case? Pobeusmc answered quite sensible to a comment of Prozak, full stop. And as you might be aware this is a rumor network, and yes, there is a rumor going around about this case and Probeusmc is not that wrong. And yes, neither I nor you know all the details. But who cares, not any names are mentioned. If the pilots involved have something to say and could cast some light in the case so much the better.

To quote the great Chinese airline pilot confucious - "Never argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference."

To put this thread back on topic, why only a few pilots join Vietnam now?

My opinion? And it is just that.

They are hiring a lot, but they also have a fairly high turnover. The FO pay is excellent in my opinion, and they do upgrade, but with some fairly painful financial conditions.

The upgrade process seems to have a fairly high failure rate as well. How high? 25-35% I think while I was there. That is both to upgrade to Captain, and upgrade to a larger aircraft. The Vietnamese are hard@#$%sses during training, and I mean initial line training for newbies, PC's, and upgrading. They are also hard on their local pilots.

Captain pay is a bit low, and with the 10% cut for one year is one of the lowest paying Captain gigs in Asia. I wouldn't have considered VAC 2 years ago had their pay been 10% less.

The upside to VAC? I was treated very well, far better than my past airline (13 years in USA). I really didn't really complain much about the job. I enjoyed it most days. After a little while, if you are an average Joe, show up, do your job, VAC seems to take care of you. I have met a few pilots that left, and came back because they like it better at VAC. Who knows, maybe I will go back.

The downside to the airline? The training can be tough on westerners brought up in "kindler and gentler" training ROE. Yeah, you are going to get multiple unrelated failures in your simulators (maybe in the airplane too - LOL) and the instructor might raise his voice. It seems that out of 10 new pilots, 1 or 2 always have trouble in training, or just hate it, and leave quickly. Living in Vietnam can also be very challenging for some (including me). Some hate it and leave. Some love it and stay for 12 years.

Their is a lot of turnover, especially within the first year.

Why did I leave (a month ago)? Rishworth. How do I feel about them? It is quicker to just tell you to go up a couple of posts and read what Toptup wrote about me!!!!! That is how I feel about Rishworth.

To PROBEUSMC,
Thanks for your latest post, this is exactly what I want to know about vietnam, no matter it's good or bad. I really appreciate :ok:

A319
 

grace.lee

Another problem is that VN don't recognise the A319 as being a A320 series aircraft! This is nuts! Europe's Giant low-cost operator flys A319s with many experienced FOS wanting to join VN Airlines. It's a A320 series aircraft but VN want only A320 hrs... They are unique in this attitude throughout the world

Same goes for turboprop recruitment; they recognise ATR72, but not ATR42 time! :rolleyes:

Recently, it turned out that another drawback concerning ATR and Airbus is, that there is no limit of the flight hours in the contract. The block hours are significantly increasing since a couple of months and 100 hours block per month on the Airbus and 80 hours on the ATR are not seldom. On top of this the amount of overnights is going up. Most of the legs are short and last for 30 min to less than two hours. In the raining season which starts now this is not any more fun in the sun...

May be you should try PPL instruction in Miami.
WX is much better and if you do well you ll get 12$ a hrs
(sorry couldn't resist):E

respect for CFI CFII MEI overthere

Does the training work? What are the standards like across the crews?

Hi!

I would apply in a SECOND if they dropped the type-rating requirement.

My brother travelled there a lot, and said that Vietnam was by far his favorite place to relocate to in Asia.

cliff
LFW

Yes & No

All over the scale, from top to bottom.

Rainy season? Actually almost a carbon copy of Miami, at least on the ground. Starts dumping rain HARD every afternoon, anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Usually starts at 2-230 in the afternoon, as opposed to amost exactly 330, at least in FT Lauderdale. Rainy season doesn't mean it rains all day. it does rain every afternoon for a bit.

Flying? Yeah you are dodging T=storms every afternoon and evening. You get used to it.

Difficult training and its' effectiveness? Can't answer that one. The proficiency of the local FO's was all over the map. The expat FO's on the 320 pretty much said the local Capt's were mostly pretty good to fly with. I guess I would suggest that makes their "difficult training" somewhat successful.

It ain't Delta or BA for standardization or standards, but there are a lot worse places to fly. I liked flying here far better than my last job.

No interview is needed.
Now it's only "one" simulator session, about 4 hours for 2 pilots. The porfile can be different for different fleets, but all in all, it's just like a regular PC/PT session in any airlines. So you can expect RTO,V1 cut,non-precision/visual approach,go around,EVAC, and maybe some holding instruction via FMC...etc. No "tricky" things in simulator.

This is correct until Apr/2010, at least:ok:

I can tell you straight from the horses mouth if you like. Screening for captains is a APU u/s push back and then single engine work. just single engine work for F/O. Then the TRE can select from a list including dual hyd, dual IR, dual ADR. SOPs are not so important as you will be with a partner from another part of the world. Get together with them and have a chat about how you will play it.

Definition of single engine work: V1 cut, single engine GA, NPA AP on, ILS raw data no AP, single engine landing. 20 kt x wind. Weather at minima.

The last Captain to fail that i know of flew in from Europe on the morning of the sim and met the other captain 1 hour before they got in the sim. Why why why?

Probeusmc. I know him. everything he says is straight up.

Top Tup. Who on earth are you. You have got to be an Australian. you're not in vac so gob shut please as you have insulted a friend of mine who i respect for his decisions. He was and still is a very experienced Captain with a great reputation. We have a big problem with guys falsifying hours etc. It's a small world though and the truth will catch up with them. If these guys were only s/o then they will be found out and if i had my way be shipped off to jail. ex AI ex jet ex anz ex nasa ex whatever..who cares the result should be the same. If they're no good they should be flicked off. Anyone who thinks line training here is 100% pass rate should think again. If you are substandard you won't pass.

It's a rumour network but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out who some people are.

for the guys in VAC:

1)what are the A330 layovers?
2)are A330 rosters based on many night flights?
3)average A330 monthly block/duty hours?

thanks!

Cheers guys!!!! V much appreciated :)

Probeusmc is a liar.
The Ex-Jet Airways pilot is a First Officer with Air New Zealand.
The other 3 pilots were with Air India for up to 2 years. They had Command Ratings on the B777 trained by Air New Zealand. They were employed by Air India through Rishworth as First Officers. It took 8 months to be checked to line at AI due to a lack of organisation in their training department. This was latter improved. Once checked to line they mainly flew ULH DEL-NYC, BOM-NYC.
This was interspersed with LON, PAR, & FRA. It's true that initially they rarely got to take off or land. But this improved as they gained respect from the Indian Captains and a shortage of FO's became critical. Near the end most of these pilots were operating 2 crew to LON and FRA.
The rumours and stories that have gone around VNA are unbelievable.
The fact that most of them are spread by expats is despicable.
That anyone would believe such dishonorable and dishonest characters beggars belief. But then again I guess that's why they are there....

Shame on You Probeusmc. I never thought that you would stoop to such low levels as to repeat scurrilous rumours. I guess the CODE is only amongst fellow Marines......

A large majority of the Vietnamese Captains are extremely competent and professional. Particularly a number of TRE's. Unfortunately this is spoiled by characters such as our Kiwi friend ran into and the B777 Chief Pilot who are abusive and dangerous in a cockpit. It might also help if they understood some english so that small misunderstandings didn't escalate into outright yelling and abuse in the cockpit.....
But at least the Vietnamese stab you from the front.....