Ice Cream
 

In the olden days, you could get yourself out of minor trouble with ATC by delivering some ice cream to the facility. If you were unfortunate enough to be cited by Manila Tower, you had to climb all the way up to the tower cab. I wonder how much ice cream is required to cover up a major violation like flying up an airway the wrong way without clearance.

APU INOP or NO GPU AVBL
 

jetcruiser

Lets try to build some answers here. I think this is one good scenario to think about, it can happen to any pilot flying big jets. So, if it does what are we gonna do?

Jc
-------------------------

The correct answer was already posted by Mysha Da Kat. Shut down.

At that point you would have completed half of your flight assignment. Worry about the other half afterward.

In the A319/A320 FCOM, there is a limitation of 3 APU start attempts followed by a 1 hour interval. The APU is normally started while taxiing in. If it fails to start twice, it's probably a good idea to wait until just before parking before the third attempt. If it still won't start, shut BOTH engines down, let the passengers off, dump the cargo, and wait an hour before trying to start the APU again.

You can use the one hour interval to coordinate with maintenance, local station management, and the like. You should also develop a full contingency plan for your RON just in case the APU is truly inop. Everyone has extra clothes in the bottom of their nav bag per company standard, right?

:ok:

Unscheduled RON
 

M 0.78 - You can use the one hour interval to coordinate with maintenance, local station management, and the like. You should also develop a full contingency plan for your RON just in case the APU is truly inop. Everyone has extra clothes in the bottom of their nav bag per company standard, right?
--------------------

Station management recently made me and the rest of the flight deck crew get off the plane and RON at an outlying station. Another crew would fly the next leg. By some strange twist of fate, I was the only one with RON clothes! Sure, the old BOM said we all have to bring them on every flight. The new FOM probably says the same thing somewhere. But you never need them, right? Now I never go anywhere, not even domestic flights, without RON clothes. I also bring a jacket on all regional flights north of MNL. It's starting to get cold up there.

:)

APU INOP or NO GPU AVBL
 

Good point guys. I agree on this one, knowing that there is no ECAM about the APU i.e. APU Fault. Shutting down both engines is one good idea. I can only suggest, Ask if the station have a Ground pneumatic carts available so if the APU doesnt start you can still do a Batteries ONLY start.
Of course, I wouldnt mind a RON, but if you're tight on schedules and wanna get back home, its something to think about.

How about if its a Night Ops? would you do the same shutting down the engines? No wrong answer, all may be correct, i just want to know your thoughts.:ok:

Jc

APU INOP or NO GPU AVBL
 

jetcruiser - Ask if the station have a Ground pneumatic carts available so if the APU doesnt start you can still do a Batteries ONLY start.
--------------------------

Actually, there are a couple of APU-related ECAM warnings/messages.

How do you do a batteries only start on an Airbus using a ground pneumatic cart?

Get-home-itis
 

jetcruiser - Of course, I wouldnt mind a RON, but if you're tight on schedules and wanna get back home, its something to think about.
------------------------------------------------------

That's probably exactly what that idiot was thinking when he did what he did. Well, he got home and should have been made to stay home for a month or three for his stupidity. But then again, he had the right connection. He got off scott-free and all the other pilots were warned not to copy him.

Batts only
 

Hi Mysha,
On the 330s, there is a supplementary checklist for Battery only engine start procedure, but you will need a Pneumatic ground cart for the bleed supply.

Dont you have this same checklist on the A320? Is it possible on the 320?

FCOM3.04.70 p9

SUPPLEMENTARY TECHNIQUES

POWER PLANT

ALL

3.04.70 P 9

Flight Crew Operating Manual

SEQ 050 REV 21

A330

Note :

This procedure can be followed when the aircraft electrical network is only
supplied with batteries.
Make sure that pneumatic power is available for starting the engines.

•

Note :

It is required to start first the LH engine since the Xbleed valve does not open
automatically on batteries. Moreover, the parking brake is pressurized by the
LH engine.
The EEC remains in unrated mode for 4 minutes. Follow the ECAM procedure
to recover the normal EPR mode.

•

•

ENGINE START ON BATTERIES

that idiot
 

Mysha, maybe the guy is really an idiot even before he did that. But, you wouldnt believe that such technique is also tolerated in other airlines.

Shutdown left engine / disembarked pax / close door start 1 / shutdown 2 disembarked cargo - embark cargo / start 2 / Refuel on the left side while embarking pax. All done within the limits of the Company Ops manual, Fcom procedures and knowledge of the VP safety. And all ground personnel properly briefed prior to the said procedures. And none of our Pilots get suspended for doing that.

Scenario: APU inop and No GPU and No Pneumatic gnd carts AVBL.

Believed it or not....

jetcruiser - Shutdown left engine / disembarked pax / close door start 1 / shutdown 2 disembarked cargo - embark cargo / start 2 / Refuel on the left side while embarking pax. All done within the limits of the Company Ops manual, Fcom procedures and knowledge of the VP safety. And all ground personnel properly briefed prior to the said procedures. And none of our Pilots get suspended for doing that.
-----------

Well, that's not allowed at PAL. And I'd like to see where it says you can do that in any Airbus FCOM. Also, some companies are willing to accept more risks than others.

APU INOP is a no-go item for dispatch to most PAL domestic stations because restart would be impossible without moving heaven and earth.

If you left MNL with a good APU and it fails to start 3 times upon arrival at the outlying station, the FCOM is quite clear. Wait 1 hour before trying again.

The point is that certain pilots can get away with what could have been homicide because of their close personal relationships with the powers-that-be.

Specific technical procedures are not the issue here.

PAL
 

Mysha,
You maybe right, it may not be allowed in PAL and I cannot argue with that.
And you're also right other companies are willing to accept more risk.

I wont be surprised if One day PAL will be more commercially aware and concern about the impact of Grounding an Airplane for days on outlying stations and losing revenue just because of APU problems.

But for now, as you've said that fellow did something wrong from SOPs and got away with it,lucky him.

Jc

Pardon me, madam, your slip is showing.
 

jetcruiser: start 2 / Refuel on the left side while embarking pax


Refuel with an engine running? Board passengers while refueling with an engine running?

:eek:

You're kidding, right? At least that idiot that actually didn't shut down also didn't refuel. You have opened our eyes to a whole new dimension of idiocy.

jetcruiser: All done within the limits of the Company Ops manual, Fcom procedures and knowledge of the VP safety. And all ground personnel properly briefed prior to the said procedures. And none of our Pilots get suspended for doing that.

That's gotta be the biggest load of crap anyone has ever dumped in this forum.

:ugh:

Ref: FOM 6.2.1.7 Fueling with one engine running

M78
 

Well M.78 , the business doesnt only stop in PAL.
Open your eyes and look over the fence and you will see that there are even bigger operators around you.

And Are you saying I am making this things up?

My present outfit has a company Ops manual, same as your BOM( not same in contents). And it clearly stated that we can do the refuelling with engines running. And the rest with prior approvals from the VP-safety, Chief and whoever you can think of to cover your ass.

Once you step out of your comfort zone(PAL premise), you will see further how tons of crap exist in this world.

Sorry, dont have means to refer to your REF. I'm no longer a PAL pilot.

Jc

Jc,

The FOM entry mentions personnel ingestion and the fire hazard as two reasons for the prohibition against fueling with an engine running.

It also says the situation is most likely to occur when the APU is inop and there is no ground power available.

So, at least at PAL, it's a big no-no.

No APU at Night
 

Jc,

Good question about APU inop at night.

The FOM says boarding or deplaning passengers is not normally done with an engine running. This implies that exceptions can be made.

I would say it would be okay to deplane the passengers with the No. 2 running then shut it down after the last passenger got off. After all, there's still a chance that the APU will start after an hour.

Darkness engenders a whole new set of risks. Ground staff might still be sleepy (early morning) or already tired (in the evening.) Keeping an engine running during the ground stop really increases the risk of very big FOD.

Besides, you can use the one hour interval to ask the taxi drivers in the parking lot where the best party places are.

:cool:

This really should be on a different thread because it has nothing to do with management.

Alright
 

:ok: M.78

Cheers!

Jc

Nope, Not Alright!
 

Jetcruiser, there seems to be something very wrong with your interpretation of the FCOM procedures for Refuelling with One Engine Running.

FCOM clearly says "Only the right hand couplings can be used". But you said "refuel on the left side while embarking the pax". What is this crap, man!

And do you actually embark passengers while refuelling on the left side with both engines running?!? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

corrections
 

Sorry Cebuano, dont mean to be very quick on that. I am guilty as charged( left side refuelling with pax boarding- it should be Right side refuelling and no pax boarding til completed with the refuelling). but i only mean one engine running.but maybe it was implied by the way i wrote it down:(.

Anyway,i talked to one of my colleagues here, maybe no standard way to do the whole scenario, but I guess his answer to my question was clearer. He said, he will shutdown no 2 engine and everything will be done on the right side i.e deplaning, embarking and refuelling.

thanks for raising it.

Jc

C.Y.A.
 

As professional pilots, we take pride in completing our assignments in the very best manner possible. We want to project the best images of ourselves and of our employers. This is applicable to every sector of commercial aviation from crop spraying to airline flying.

Sometimes our desire to please our clients is used as a convenient mask for our own personal or financial motives. We Filipinos like to call it malasakit when it might actually be something completely different.

Imagine having to stay overnight at some god-forsaken malaria-infested backwater airport with no overnight clothes. Add to that the loss of a nice juicy international layover the next day; not to mention your kid's birthday party that evening.

Just remember, if you stretch the rules and bring the plane home safely, you will be lucky if you get a pat on the back. On the other hand, if anything goes wrong they will throw the company operations manual at you and make you an example for all the others not to follow.

Use the company manuals to cover your ass. That way they can't use them against you.

Shiny side up! Pointy end forward!

RP-C7777
 

Sirs,


I would like to ask if someone here in this forum has already flown this brand new jet?


and what's the difference between Boeing and Airbus Fly-by-wire system?


thanks:cool: