Flying for Lion Air
 

I have done the assessment at CAE for the Lion Air program, and I think that I will likely get a provisional offer soon. Now I am not crazy about pay-for-training, and I know the contract is not the best (about $45000 USD a year, time off provisions, etc). However, I am tired of being unemployed and have a decent severance package from my last employer that I could use. Cost for a 737 NG type rating at CAE Dallas in $24000 USD. Some opportunity is better then no opportunity, I guess...

Specifically, does anyone out there fly for Lion Air? What have your experiences been like? I have the usual questions, safety, scheduling, maintenance, etc.

More generally, how do some of you like living and flying out of Jakharta? I don't really have any experience flying in that part of the world.

Thanks for any input.

I'll do your homework for you:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ion-air-2.html

Enjoy!!!

Flying for Lion Air
 

Yes, well thanks for responding.

However, I've read all of that already, so I do know what an apartment costs and how to give directions to a cab driver. As far as actually flying and working for Lion Air goes, I'm still pretty much in the dark.

I was hoping that someone actually flew for them, but I think that they are new to the idea of hiring foreign pilots.

Well, Lion Air do seem to be expanding.

But I would look into the following points that arouse my suspicious nature:
1. Indonesian DGAC had some restrictions on foreigners (non-Indo nationals) working as F/O within Indonesian airlines, specially those with no or few hours on type.
2. Salaries in Indonesia tend to be fairly low, unless you are particularly experienced in a particular area of work. So I would query the amount that you mention.
3. Seems rather expensive for an FAA 737 type rating. I should have thought max 12,000 USD would have been more realistic. Could you not do a 737NG rating elsewhere (as generally all FAA training is recognised by the Indonesian DGAC)?
4. I dont see any details regarding recruitment on the Lion Air website.

I enjoyed my time in Indonesia, and in general it is a pretty good place to work. Sorry I dont have more specific info on Lion Air.

Finally, the old addage comes to mind that if no-one paid for jobs (via type ratings) then probably no-one would have to. Personally speaking, I would feel insulted if, after paying in the region of 100,000 USD for a JAA (F)ATPL course, I was then asked by an airline to part with another 24,000 USD for a job!

Good luck, and keep us posted how you get on with Lion Air.

They desperately need pilots for the 739s... they often fly up to 110hrs a month (and insiders said, they fly more in some cases).

The MD80 crews now "fly by QRH", in the bad sense. They use it so often they know some parts off by heart and some are dying to leave. Several of them have refused offers to move to 739ERs due to extra bond conditions that will add to their already bonded situation...

Safety? They've tailscraped 1 739ER already officially... one was reported to have had a strike on take off and... continued from Manado to Jakarta.

Scheduling? It's schedule by SMS. Their computerized scheduling system is nice, but by the afternoon of the first day in the scheduling period, you'd be sent SMSes on revisions. Why? Well, it's not integrated to the rest of the company, and maintenance, delays etc, you'd figure out why.

Don't be surprised to receive calls of "Mister, we need your help! Please! Can you fly another 2 legs after this?" And refusing can result in the management types calling you to be "persuaded".

Now, Lion Air offered 75k USD for Indonesian pilots with NG ratings to join, guess what? No or very few takers.

Maintenance? Well, I hear for the 739s it's OK, but for the other types... forget it.

Flying in and out of Jakarta?
Don't worry about ATC delays, it won't happen with Lion (but it happens with everyone else!)... go and figure why...
Don't be surprised if you get nasty verbal abuse by other airline pilots in the air because Lion is "so nice" to ATC, that the flight 20NM ahead of you at the same flight lever gets bumped off so you can have a clear run, or that the airplane 15NM away on approach gets told to go around so that you can have "no delay in departures", or that you get bumped from #4 in sequence to become #1 only to see 3 traffic on TCAS suddenly on downwind...

With the 744s coming online, there's good news for the 739 crew, the jokers are leaving the type and punching their way (literally) to grab a spot on the 744.

Living in Jakarta? Make sure they'll give you transport pickup to the airport and back, otherwise call in sick on friday afternoon duty starts (crew delays due to traffic jams aren't unusual)

You can grab an apartment and share it, or go for one of those "room rents", my house is one, and I got 3 Aussies enjoying the free pool at the weekends and it's near the bars/cafes in Kemang, and it's a quiet neighborhood (though am moving out soon to a new house but also provide rooms for rent, but this one's still open)... You can grab one of those rooms for $100 - $300 a month with laundry, mineral water, own bathroom (hot & cold) airconditioning, 24hr access, cable TV and internet... and parking.

With that, you can save more out of a smaller salary than in other countries.

Yes there are restrictions, but there shortage still exist and recruiting foreigners is a way to relieve the pressure. However, the DGCA (yes they've changed their name to the DGCA now, no longer the DGAC), said they will allow for foreign pilots to be employed in Indonesia on a salary in par with locals. So far we have not heard more from the DGCA and airlines are eager to get clarity on this issue. Once that happens, if I were you, I'd go and apply somewhere else, although NG is limited to Garuda and Lion at the moment.

PK-KAR

What are the chances of a 1600 hour (500 on 733) F/O with Lionair? Do they only take cadets as Ryanair are doing?
I cant seem to find any contact info on these guys.

anyone?

Hello PK-KAR,

Thanks for your informative post.

Interesting about the shortage of 737 pilots. Do you think that even in this market their demand for pilots is growing? I wonder if they have simply run out of Indonesian pilots to hire?

I know that the 737's are new. I would expect them to be in pretty good shape. The MD's are on the way out and getting old, can't say that I'd really want to go and fly them.

I don't mind flying a lot, but no one wants to fly forced overtime, or when you are tired, sick, etc. Still, I used to work for a USA cargo operator that would dock your pay if you called in sick. We used to call it the "get sick on your own time" policy.

Thanks for the information about in Jakarta. If I end up there in a month or two, I'll send you a message and see if you have anything open as far as rentals. Does having a car there help?

Any hints on flying in Asia? My guess is that the biggest challenge is TRW's. All of my time has been in North and Central America. As far as ATC priority, I guess that the companies and ATC have to sort it out if there are some issues.

Regards

Lionair CAE Crew
 

Hi,

Has anyone got a copy of the CAE / Lionair 737NG Captain contract?
Or
Are there any expats already at Lionair?

Thanks
i_n

jakarta
 

I’ve just spent the last 5 months in Jakarta training for an airline there.
There is a big pilot shortage, all the airlines are recruiting but there are no locals left.
They have all gone to India, Malaysia and Hong Kong for more money.
The company I was working for were taking on F/O who had not flown for 10 years.
Some of them were up to 300hrs of line training and still could not land the aircraft.
There was a big rumour around that Garuda Lionair and Batavia were asking the DGCA for permission to take on expats.
Life style in Jakarta is OK once you get used to it. I was staying in an apartment 30K from the airport, down town. It could take between 40mins and 1hr 30mins to get to the airport depending on which day and the time of day it was.
Very normal to be programmed for a 4 sector day, and after the first sector be handed a piece of paper saying that they had added an extra two sectors on, making 6 in all.
Just required a phone call to crewing saying ‘sorry but I have a dentist appointment later and can’t do the last sectors’
If anybody hears that they are able to take on expats please let me know. I have several friends who would love to go there for a year to build up some hours.

Hello Topstar,

Thanks for your post. Just curious, who requires 5 months of training? Don't mention names if you don't want to. I know that the Japanese can be quite, quite thorough with training.

New Lion Air assessments- Brussels 19 June
 

I got an email today announcing assessements Friday in Brussels. I'm not sure if I'm in a position to go that far on short notice, I'm still trying to make arrangements.

Any updates on Lion Air? Anybody else get the email?

Lion Air contact
 

Hi All,

Can anyone give me any contact info for Lion air? I tried the email on the other thread but it bounced back to me.

THANKS,

geebz

**

Read this link

Lion Air jobs, payscales and entry requirements.

Lion is trying to get a waiver from Indo DGCA to hire more foreign pilots but it's still in process so they have a temporary freeze on putting on foreign pilots but that won't last forever.

They've stopped advertising and shut down the links for recruitment but suggest you send your details to

Lion Air Tower
Jl. Gajah Mada No. 7
Jakarta Pusat
DKI Indonesia


HRD Phone is +62 21-70712601

HRD LION AIR
contact person
Akhsin Muamar / Setro Gondo

Not sure if these people are still there but it worth a try

Be aware that the DGCA discourages expat pilots and will normally only issue a 6 month permit in times of shortage , what this Lion waiver is trying to do I don't know for sure but they maybe trying to extend that

Lion Air CAE Assessment
 

Hello all

Has anyone gone recently to a CAE Lion Air assessment? If you have, could you give us some information about the assessment?

What's in it? Questions type, simulator profile, etc. Whatever you have to share is appreciated.

Thanks:ok:

<< However, I am tired of being unemployed and have a decent severance package from my last employer that I could use. Cost for a 737 NG type rating at CAE Dallas in $24000 USD. Some opportunity is better then no opportunity, I guess...>>

I suggest you consider the other side of the coin, For example: You pay the money, you do the rating and then you dont get the job!

request
 

HI! I am f Fo rated 737 300 900 and looking forward to go to asia since in europe it s very difficult to find a job at the moment.

could u give some advice and contacts?

many tahnks many many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

go to middle east
 

You better off and try Fly dubai.. they where looking for Fo's on a job site.. (climbto350.com) a few days back..

the money is alot better.. too... 600 euros a month all in..:{

go to middle east
 

You better off and try Fly dubai.. they where looking for Fo's on a job site.. (climbto350.com) a few days back..

the money is alot better.. too... Lion air..600 euros a month all in..:{

LION AIR another point of view
 

All is a lie, I have a colleague that left there because the salary is a lie they signed last year between CAE and Lion air max salary 3000$ for a Captain, the housing is a shi....t, and in most of cases share sh...t dirty flat with an unknown partner, also electricity and water not included, and in this 3rd conuntries you know what you can spect, water at the price of a gas gallon.

Remember no way for FO with type rating on b737, they sell the type rating to cadets pilots from sabena and CAE academy and send them there with 150h on light planes and 40h sim on 737, so the picture is working as a training captain all the time for 3000$, or 2200€ a month, and not even being type rated as trainer in the license.

Guys this is getting nuts or what!!!!
Better be grounded dreaming to go fly, than being flying wishing to be on the ground, because in that instant is when the accident becomes a reality in your life, and unfortunately ther is no way back.

So good luck and try to flip the coin, but remeber the deep sea is plenty of only brave sailors.

Hello guys
 

I am new to this group and the only reason i joined was the fact that i want some career advice, i am looking for a job and i seriously will work for peanuts at this time, i did my flying from Sabena airline training center(now it is called CAE global academy phoenix) and passed out with a FAA CPL-AMEL, now i don't know what to do i a desperately looking for a job and now that none of the airline in my country i.e. India are hiring i am looking for a job abroad be it any where- i am just hoping to build up some hrs on the jets, as of now i have mere 270 hrs including 83 on the multi engine(50 actual, 33 on sim) and i am willing to pay for my type rating on 737 or 320 if any company is willing to take me up.
Plz HELP!:bored:

Surely a piss take, if not that is seriously sad.

I don't even think Lion Air as scary as they are will be entertaining those hours from non-Indonesians (even if you pay for everything).

Now thats just gold - we're all screwed.

They do. (In fact, many airlines do it as long as the student can prove they're up to standard.)

himz_falcon, why don't you ask around in Phoenix? I'm pretty sure that atleast some folks overthere can tell you more.

Yes I know that many airlines around the world take low-houred guys. As do many Indonesian airlines, they however do not take low-houred foreigners. Their major problem at the moment is a shortage of experienced people to fly their steady stream of incoming 737-900's. Hence the CAE contract.

Anybody have any contact info for the CAE/Lion air program or the CAE/Air Asia program? I got 900 TT and Jet time, but I Haven't gotten any response from CAE. Please help. I think most people don't understand, that if you get 500 hours on type, it won't matter that you paid for the program!

CaptWuff, I'm afraid that if you're not a CAE global academy student, chances are nil to get in. The contacts responsible at CAE don't respond because they simply can't. They're swamped with emails etc.

If you're wanting to buy hours and a type rating, why don't you try some of those places that advertised on pprune, like this one?

Eagle Jet International, Inc.

There's also another one I saw in the banner adds last week.

Has anyone tried such programs? Seems a little far fetched to me. Call me a traditionalist!

Expensive
 

Just FYI a FAA B737 typerating is not series specific. Does not matter if you take it in a 100 or 900, would say the same on your license.....B737. Only thing you would need coming from a round dial B737 is a differences Course, they are cheap and involves some few hours of classroom study.
So what they are charging you to do it in a NG sim is a waste, same rating. But Hey its your money...I guess CAE makes some cash on this pay for training job schemes

:=:=:=:=.

A comparison:

eaglejet: Typerating 737NG + 300h = 28.000E
lionair: Typerating 737NG + 1500h = 0E

Ofcourse you can work in a different job after half a year eaglejet experience, thus the difference is smaller, but you won't be current anymore and have a LOT less hours.

0 E ??? You have to pay your type rating at CAE!

Any info on the program here? I got about 900 TT and 350 Jet. I'd pay for 320 rating. I applied, but no response from CAE.

You do get payed while working at lionair, that is not the case at eaglejet. The wages for starting first officers have recently been doubled which means that after two years the net result is approximately zero.

CaptWUFF, lionair does not fly 320´s, thus getting that rating won´t help here. I can give specific info but do need specific questions first.

Experience
 

Guys

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. Me, and everyone else, once was a low timer. But I still believe that if you have 900 hours TT you really should be looking at Instructing at a local school; Get some multi-engine students and build your experience that way. It is not even fair for the pilot on your left to have a 900 hr guy on the right seat with paying passengers and their families in the back. I say that with all due respect to all low timers out there. Be reasonable, guys.

Think Prop
 

My friend himz_falcon


With 200hrs+ TT you really should not even think about jets and Type Ratings. You need to think about a more complex Cessna to fly, with retractable landing gear, adjustable pitch propeller and the sorts. You can't be too far ahead of your experience. It takes time to get it. When you come to around 2,000 to 3,000 hours, then a Type Rating might be more appropriate after you get yout ATPL.

Happy flights!

I had exactly 200 hrs TT out of flying school, joined airline on 737 flying 150 people everyday during training, and adjusted just fine, hundreds/thusands more are like me.

SQ puts their cadets on learjet for training, then straight for 777 flying 300 people.

So why feel so insecure having very low time fo on your right? afraid if u cant monitor him/her? with so high hours i m sure thats not even a prob.:=

BoeingDriverUSA comments
 

BoeingDriverUSA thanks for the support....


Yeah, so what you are saying is that if I can get a job flight instructing rather then on a jet...i should take the flight instructing?

Listen, I'm looking for anything with wings to fly right now. THe opportunity is not there. I got hired on a jet with 400 hours, and I did pretty well until the company sold the a/c. So, I'm of course going to be searching to get back on a jet, but I'll take what I can get.

It really makes me mad when high time guys come and bash low time guys because they got on a jet with low time. I'm glad I'm NOT sitting next to you in the cockpit. You'd be the guy that says " sit there and be quiet".

To all the low timers: Don't let guys like this discourage you. If you can get time on a jet, take it! Look to get on a jet as fast as possible too.

CaptWUFF

In no way, shape or form I bashed you for being a low time pilot. You might need to read what I said carefully next time so you don't distort what's been said. My question to you would be with your total flight experience, flying passenger in the back, how would you handle a Captain who can't figure out how long he can stay in a holding pattern; who chooses a bad airport to divert, or simply decides to land with a strong tail wind because he feels comfortable. Can you take the controls and make all these decisions if he becomes incapacitaded with your 900 flying hours? I know you can't! I once was 900 hours myself and with that much time I was teaching private pilots how to fly and I learned a lot about aviation that way.

Cheers

Good advice BoeingDriverUSA
 

Boy boys boys. It's easy to see what BoeingDriverUSA is saying. Learn your craft, do some type of apprenticeship to become an old and good pilot.

You need to make every post a winner :ok: Apply for ALL the jobs you can and if you get a Cessna job, take it! If you have a choice, take the one that helps your career the best. But apply for all the jobs that you can.

Some of the best jobs in North America I would think, are in Canada flying in and out of the bush. That's how we do it in Oz :) By all means, if you have the opportunity for what seems a better job, then take it.

My career has taken me from piston bangers around the bush in Oz to flying Jets around the world. In Oz (due to the way things are), I have been blessed (I'm not a bible basher, just lucky!:)) to have flown in many different types of aircraft and situations.

These days, I have a reasonable grasp on the things around me..... the weather, my work mates (matettes:E), aircraft etc. I think that BoeingDriverUSA was trying to alert you guys to other things that do go on :D.

My missus is from East Java. We had some news when we were there once, about a Guarda flight into Central Java. The Skipper tried to land his Jet aircraft at around 60 kts more than Vapp, into a relatively short strip for a Jet. I am sure that most could find info on this disaster. A Go Around would have averted disaster, and a lot of people would have lived another day.

Be careful for what you want guys, as you may get it :ok:

All the very best to everyone and I hope that you make good career choices :)

So pmmartin, did ya get the job or not? Don't see any new posts from you since doing so well on your evaluation. What's the story?

IMHO...Everyone with 200 hours DESERVES a jet job. :ok:

Cpt.Wuff and others,

no matter how low your time is, if they invite you .. go compete!

17 years ago, I went from flying school to glass cockpit, I got the same 15 sessions and less than 200 hr to qualify, just like pilots who were not abinitio.

This program has been going for a while but I'm yet to hear any lion bule on the airwaves >.<