A330 Captains flying n future in Vietnam Airlines
 

Hi,
Anybody got any info on flying the A330 fleet in VNA? Like how many hours per month....days per month.....no. of night stops etc & future of the fleet in the company.
Thanks.

News???
 

Any fresh news on the current hiring process???

Hey Everyone,
Where do you think I cud fit in? 9500TT, 1800PIC Military A/C, 5500 Hrs WideBody FO time of wch 3000Hrs on present A/C (777).looking to join up as an FO or Senior FO and then a fast upgrade to Left Seat...Thanks

Why
 

Why do you think, your qualifications would put you on the fast track program?
Many 320/330/77 expats FOs at Vietnam with equal or better waiting their turn.

Reading earlier today VN is advert for 777 DEC's in Hanoi at $13,200/month.

First time I've seen the 777 on their adverts in many years. Must be getting the 787's thus the vacancies?

K

Would be interested to hear from any former sandpit pilots now working at VN to compare and contrast VN vs. EK, QR, etc..

Lots said about pay and such but wondering about lifestyle, rostering, cockpit culture, management, safety culture, etc..

feedback
 

Seems no active VNA pilots in this forum... :bored:

well guemes there's a pretty big difference between EK and QR so, which one would you like it to be compared to?

Plenty of ex QR guys here, and only a couple of EK that I'm aware of. I don't know anyone that's gone the other way, except a couple of old guys who reached 60 and went to the-airline-we're-not-allowed-to-talk-about so they could fly til age 65.

VNA
 

Happy in VNA, Luke?

Fleet
 

I suspect Luke is on the WB fleet, so his info is somewhat different, on the A321 fleet a number of guys this year have gone to the nameless airline and to EK, and more are waiting for a chance.
VN pays nothing more than your salary and good luck trying to get overtime, school fees are on average +$1000 a month raising to almost $1800 per month for a senior in high school (field trip, laptop etc ). Whilst the cost of living is not that of Dubai, it has risen considerably in the last 7 years.. Factor in the official inflation rate over that period +10% annually compounded and a basic salary 10.8K for 6/2 Capt 321, if your a single guy it's ok, but if you have kids and a wife, not so much. Unfortunately guys often overlook the benefit of a provident plan, until it's to late. For FOs this is one of the best paying contracts out there and they offer a path to the left seat, albeit minus the cost of training and a bond and a 10% pay cut for the first year (approx $60K total)...
As with any airline that expands too rapidly, one calamitous incident may cause the CAAV to revisit the rapid upgrades and put the brakes on! As investment advisors often say "past fund performance is no indicator of future fund performance", there is no guarantee that the upgrade path will continue as it has.

VNA
 

Thanks for The info, Dihedral... So basically what you're telling me is to skip VNA and apply in the nameless airline? BTW, I'm a a320 cap... I was kind of atracted to Hanoi and the low cost of living vs. the high cost of the sandpit...

News
 

Talk to the agencies...:ok:

hello

Anyone here have a contact email for VNA besides the ones from rishworth and what is posted on their website ? The latter doesn't go through !

Please inbox me the same if you do .

Thanks in advance :ok:

Dihedral's right, and I'm right too I guess ... he's on A321 and I'm widebody so I appreciate we have different points of view. A321 has always been the fleet that works the hardest, does the most sectors and has the greatest turnover and the greatest cause for annoyance in terms of roster disruptions, fatigue etc. Having said that, everyone's working hard this year, I've done 960 hours in last 12 months, only did about half that the first year I joined.

Lifestyle here, yes I still like it and there's no way on earth as a family man, that I would leave here for anything based in the sandpit. Obviously there's some very tempting money on offer up in China these days but there's a reason for that, it's a much more difficult place to live and every sim / medical is a roulette wheel whether you keep your job or not.

If anything the quality of life in 'nam has gotten better overall, it seems every 10 minutes in the expat area these days, they're knocking down an old house to put up a new western style cafe or wine shop or something. We've got much better groceries and even good quality organic food places, Mcdonalds and Starbucks is here in a big way now, there's a heap of new bars and supermarkets and stuff now that were never here 5-10 years ago.

I agree with dihedral in that costs have gone up, a LOT, in the last few years. My kid's school fees have risen from $10,000 to $16,000 p.a. in the last 4 years. I was clearing out the cupboard the other day and found a pizza delivery menu from 2010 from my local, a margarita used to cost VND90,000 now it's 220,000. Electric and water etc also gone up. Having said that, rents have actually gone down I think, in HCM anyway, because of the glut of new build apartments that have come on the market in An Phu / Phu My Hung, these days you can get a really good 2 bed apartment for $7-800 and a 3 bed for $1000, it used to be hard to find anything good western quality for less than $12-1400.

There are certainly some major challenges ahead for the airline particularly with Vietjet snapping at their heels - they are massively expanding, undercutting them on price, and more immediate problem for VNA is that they are poaching a heap of our Vietnamese pilots and engineers. Mostly A320 guys of course which is another huge rostering headache for that fleet. The main airports are getting saturated with parking space and, because the local ATC is so bad and applies such huge separations between landing and departing aircraft, it's pretty much every flight now out of Hanoi / HCM where you have to sit at the holding point for 15 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance. They need some major infrastructure upgrades on that side of things very very soon.

It's still one of the most secure contract jobs in the world, with the B787s and A350s both arriving next year there's going to be jobs galore. Total aircraft numbers are still increasing for many years to come. The next problem will be that the old 777s and 330s are starting to get retired in 2 or 3 years, and the expats on those fleets are waiting with great interest to see what kind of offer we get for transitioning onto the new types.

Command upgrades ... big news in town is that for the first time in VNA history they are upgrading some 777 FO's right to left on type, historically it's always been upgrade to the A321. They're very long serving guys who've been waiting patiently for their turn but, still, nice to dodge that A321 bullet. As things are at the moment, it's almost hard to justify paying for the upgrade onto A321 as a widebody FO, the salary's about the same and the lifestyle is significantly worse.

So overall marks out of 10, I'd still give it a solid "7". If they would sort out a few quality-of-life issues with rostering and staff travel and give a pay rise that matches the cost of living - specially for the A321 boys and girls - it would go back up to 8's and 9's.

All you guys asking for contact emails for the airline direct or if there's a way to bypass the agencies - forget about it - the answer is no.

The only way to get employed directly by the airline is on a local Vietnamese contract which you don't want to do. And even if you did, you can't, because you need a Vietnamese passport.

Luke ...

That was a fantastic brief on flying and lifestyle for Vietnam Airlines!! One of the best I've read on Pprune !

Very much appreciated sir!

Kap

VNA
 

thanks for the time taken on those lines Luke, greatly appreciated :D

You're welcome.

By the way pezetaroi I just realized you're the one who started this thread back in 2007 - have you seriously been been agonizing over it for the last SEVEN YEARS and still not made a decision? :eek:

No doubt a well time consuming writtened information. Thank you. Happy flying.

Congrats Luke!
 

That's what PPRUNE is all about!
Great post my friend. Thank you so much!:D:D

FF

VNA
 

Quite an observer, Luke... LOL! Indeed, back in 2007 I was looking for some adventure, now I'm searching for good income + a decent place to live in + a relative stable job... and it seems that VNA has that...

cheers ;-)

Hey Luke , please check your pm's.


Many thanks
4g's

haha you and a million others mate, I should start my own agency, I think Akbar al Baker and Tim Clark would have a meltdown if they saw the contents of my inbox right now :D:D:D:D:D

peze, not for or against!
 

Luke gave a very balanced view of things.
If you read again, whilst he gave it a solid 7.
I reiterate the A321 fleet is a world away from the WB fleet
Lifestyle wise. Rents in Hanoi where you would be based are not falling. I am neutral in terms of join or not. Some guys love it, some hate it and some tolerate it because its the best they can do. Whilst Luke gave a superb overview, I was just trying to dispel the notion that Vietnam was super cheap, cheaper than Dubai yes, but if your a family, no schooling, no housing, etc, no medical insurance seems to be the trend of late (mostly),
So there are a lot of additional costs, as Luke said a WB FO earns the same as a 321 Capt , a pay increase (also realistically achievable O/T) particularly on the 321, a revamped scheduling system and personnel, and implementation of proper staff travel benefits (Skyteam etc).
Well now that would be "come on in the waters warm:ok:"

Tks , Luke for taking the time., Your're a gent .Had to laugh , but not surprised at the interest you have received.

Dihedral…

Thanks also for your input as well!

It seems there certainly is an interest among us here for VN. I've read other posts that that VN wants to grow quite significantly over the years ahead which certainly bodes well for those of us who are interested.

One additional question I have…

How has the Agency (Rishworth) been with things like being upfront with those of you who are there, supporting you if issues arise? And what about contact-ability to the Rishworth rep if you need to have some questions answered? And finally, since I've never worked for an agency before, what exactly is the role of Rishworth once a pilot is there in training or on the line?

Thanks for the input!

Kap

^^^ reiterate what dihedral said. again. I'm not even HAN based so I take no responsibility for anyone's disappointment or claim to being some kind of guru about VNA.

Also on further reflection ... I think I was talking as much about the country as the job, in my previous post when I was scoring it 7 out of 10. The job's only a small part of the picture.

- If you're the kind of captain who gets driven crazy by nothing less than operational and SOP perfection, don't come here.
- If you're aspiring management, or have a captain-is-god complex, don't come here.
- If your idea of fun is sitting by the fireplace drinking port, or polishing the Bentley on your immaculately manicured driveway of your country house, don't come here.
- If you can't handle maximum hours and chaotic rostering, don't come here.

- If you're the kind of guy who goes to work, gets on with everyone, does the job with minimum fuss, goes home and then likes to go out and spend their very large salary partying in a cheap, filthy, fascinating asian mega city, then you'll like it here.
- If you're a divorced horny old captain looking for a cute young thing to take care of you in your retirement, then you'll like it here.
- If you want a base to explore asia and do stuff like hop off to thailand for the weekend for some diving or cambodia for jungle exploring or something, then you'll like it here.

I'm sure you all get the picture. Take the job for what it is and use it as a platform to go have some fun in your life. This place isn't everyone's cup of tea but if you approach it with the right attitude, it's as fun as a barrel of monkeys :ok:

Luke hits the target
 

Luke's pretty much got the bases covered.
Without trying to offend, if your looking for Swiss Precision, German Engineering or Zero MELs....:=
I have looked at Korean Air planes, that are not new but seem immaculate. Unfortunately looking at our 777s doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy..
Luke dealt with the infrastructural issues before, Vietjet and even Jetstar are all on fairly aggressive expansion drives, alongside the planned doubling of the WB fleet size at VN. (Delays, frustration, schedule changes, but that's everywhere I guess)
After Indonesia, Vietnam, I think is the next largest growing aviation market in the world, so I suspect, for a good few years to come, there will be opportunities within the Commercial Aviation Market, along with the Private Jet Market (very soon), we have expats now flying Grand Caravans on Floats between tourists spots.
Anybody looking to come here must be flexible, as that is how the Vietnamese treat all things- Red light! No worries, I'll just mount the sidewalk (pedestrians be damned) and bypass that silly thing whilst going in the opposite direction to the flow of traffic... :ugh:
China offers some very good money, because the need is so great and their CAAC seem to hinder rather than facilitate expat hiring..
I would say to guys, if your not desperate for a job right now!!
Hold off, there is a pilot crisis looming (Vietjet is already poaching pilots, and VN have responded with more pay and vacation for local pilots) the first offering from VN in response to a new expat contract has been met, with a very cool reception (Spring air et al being beneficiaries) especially on the 321.
Already the manning on the 321 is at critical levels, it won't take much to get to the point that flights are canceled. Then, we will see a reasonable contract, maybe even a signing bonus for the the newcomers..

Does Rishworth provide medical insurance to family members?

Interesting points of view, Dihedral... thanks! What I do perceive in both cases is that none of you is saying, "stay away", something commonly read in Chinese forums. So, after all, it does seem like a good choice... Here goes another one, how much longer do you think VNA will be in need of expats?

Fascinating stuff, Luke & Dihedral.

Thank you.

If it isn't too difficult a question to answer, what would you consider to be a reasonable (but not over the top) budget for monthly living expenses?

Thanks again.

What about recent advertising ATR FO? Anybody heard something?

Impossible to say
 

That's to broad a question in my opinion.
Are you single, single & commuting, family, family but commuting.
Where are you from, what are you accustomed to, what can spouse tolerate.
You can rent from a room from $400 to a Villa for $5000 plus
snap.com.vn (no affliation) that's HCM, Hanoi same or more.
Are you going live dangerously ride a motorbike,
or taxi it or rent a car/driver or even buy a car (it can all be done)
Kids: private school $€£¥!!
Spouse boredom begats shopping£€
Local girlfriend(s) could have beer to Dom Perignon tastes, is that additional to spouse or not!!
Are you going to eat local or at chillsaigon.com
Pilots seem to live the full spectrum. Some very flash/bling some a very modest more local style

HOUSING:
I live in Phu My Hung, about 40 min drive to the airport. With taxi 240000 VND aprox 10$. An apartments costs around 500-700$ for 2 bed room and 1000-1500$ for penthouse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq15iIO2b-

TRANSPORTATION:
I go to work by scooter. Is not so bad as people say (actually I love driving my scooter). Just be careful and don't drive to fast. Its very easy to get a license for scooter. No need for exams or tests. Let me know if you need contact details.

INTERNET: I pay 30$ for ADSL 3MBs

ELECTRICITY: Aprox 100$ per month (3 A/C running)

CABLE TV: 6$ per month

HOSPITAL: Vey good medical care in Vietnam (Better then in Europe), but it will cost you dearly if you are not insured. If you come to Vietnam its very important to have a good medical insurance. Best hospitals are Hanh Phuc Hospital (Singaporean) and FV Hospital.

QUALITY OF LIFE: Compared to Europe, I consider the quality of life as excellent for expats compared to Europe. If you have a wife she might find it a bit difficult in the beginning to find friends but a very good way for her to make new friends is ILV. Its a club for expat wifes in Saigon.

What about recent advertising ATR FO? Anybody heard something?

Watch the Trend
 

For persons interested in Vietnam in general!
Watch the trend....
In China, Spring Air (being private and profit driven) was first to revamp their contract, you can earn $18.8K net on a 6/3 contract. West Air, Lucky, Beijing Capital, Hainan and China Southern all followed suit.
Air Arabia today's announces new commuting contracts in ME, how long before nameless, EK and QR are forced to do the same?
Korean Air has been advertising for the last 7 years (you would think it's the worlds largest airline) Asiana advertising as well.
A bunch of carriers in Japan advertising, pretty basic, all commuting, but nobody is going, hear JCAB is reviewing the 6 months of training to something more realistic.
Vietjet, Jetstar and VNA all offer a pretty basic contract at 6/2 10.8K (320/321), resorting to poaching local pilots, as expats not responding well in almost 2015 to what was on offer in 2007. (Despite central bankers fear of deflation, I have seen some pretty big inflationary advances in prices Globally in those 7-8 years).
Sorry Peze, in the last 6 months I haven't seen nearly the complaints out of China, that I used to, I think they are waking up to the requirement to treat expats decently (are there still complaints, sure, but Beijing's Global plans call for a robust Aviation Market, so it will improve).
Vietnam operates on looking at today.. Today we haven't parked any planes, but.. (36 widebodies plus more 321 and ATR @ VN), 60 firm, options for 32 @ Vietjet, Jetstar growing from modest 5 to 18 a/c. So there is a lot of demand and relatively little interest...
To put this in perspective, VN has a population 3 times the size of Canada but all 3 airlines in Vietnam don't add to the size of West Jet, much less Air Canada (fleet numbers).
So hold off, something better (contract wise) will have to be offered.
They won't let Gulf carriers and Air Asia/X steal their home market...
Someone asked how long will they hire expats, my response how long has Saudi Air been hiring expats??
Anyway vacation finished back to the grind. Talk again in 6 weeks..

Thanks all for those useful replies.

I am married with older kids and would intend to semi-commute, i.e. maintain a home in the UK and return a few times a year but also get involved in a life in SE Asia. My wife would do the same. We do not have massively expensive tastes but I would like a clean spacious apartment/ house in which to retreat from the hustle and bustle of the city.

Now you may think I am a fool, and please do say so if you think it, but I am currently a relatively senior BA shorthaul Captain on a full time contract. BA is going hell for leather down the low cost road and is ripping up its agreements with its pilots. BA, because of their extensive network are able to work their flight crew extremely hard and many of us are bouncing off legal limits with EASA FTLs just round the corner. Nightstops aplenty but mostly just 13 hours off before another 12 hour duty. All this in an atmosphere of weariness and extreme low morale.

I have another 6 years to go before I hang up my hat for good and I would like to finish by enjoying my flying again. At present the VN contract falls short of enticing but if they were to compete with the pay in China, it could be tempting. My question is; is it worth considering leaving a stable but unpleasant employer to join one that may be much the same. What is VN like to work for, management and colleagues alike? What does a "normal" roster look like? How flexible are the scheduling staff? How many sectors per day and nightstops per month? Are the sim checks chop or train? How many ADDs are carried and is the maintenance a worry? Answers to all those sorts of questions would be gratefully received.

I'd appreciate your thoughts, guys.

Thanks

For those of you contracting there, what is the current feeling with Rishworth? Are they looking after you? Being UkI based, I've been looking at the Parc contract which seems to include quite a few benefits, although I would like to seem full salary in the first year.

never_home I could answer all those questions but I'd rather just say "you're a fool". Do NOT leave a senior position in BA for the A321 fleet here.

NG708 the whole "which agency" thing is pretty over rated - except DPI who suck, because they pay their pilots a few hundred bucks less. PARC and Rishworth are very similar, pay the same, both offer medical and support services and both have good guys here on the ground to help their pilots out. In practice these days, we all crash each other's agency dinners and drink each other's beers and share each other's gossip and the Rishworth guy helps out the PARC pilots and vice versa.

alloverthesky87 - there's no expat FO's on the ATR fleet any more, and no plans to resume recruitment I don't think. If I was you I'd check out the Bali based job with Garuda :ok:

one exemple : the last ATR pilots in vietnam airlines, have not been renewed.
And now, it will be more and more the same case on airbus fleet.
Unfortunately IMO you would have better chances if you pay for a TR A320 than staying on ATR....