millerscourt...ok point taken. Is it really that bad though? At the moment, I am flying for an LCC in Europe....we do alot of hours.....and the pay has
(just recently) become cr¤%#p!:ouch:
As far as I can judge...an FO in SQ cargo will clear about 10-12G sgd/month......that is almost twice what I clear from present employment!!!:eek: No 13th. month and profit sharing either!!:ugh: If I am incorrect...please correct me!

As for retirement....well not yet I guess...´bout 25 years to go.:cool:

millerscourt...feel free to write some about the job,:ok: :ok:

readufive I am not saying it is bad but pointing out that you should base your salary expectations on what is guaranteed and not assume that a Bonus will always be paid. The exchange rate is as bad as it will probably get for most currencies but who knows. Ask any Cargo Pilot whether they are getting anything like the S$7000 per month in productivity and Allowances which SQ show as being typical.I doubt it personally on just 50 hrs/month.

I have always advised anyone not to join any expat airline as a F/O except for Cathay where there is a open upgrade policy. With all the rest you are taking a big risk with your career IMO. Just look at EK where DEC's are the order of the day now and in SQ that has always been the policy, so there is no great incentive to upgrade non nationals. If it does not work out where are you going to go after your Bond is over in 5++ years time?( Still a F/O!)

millerscourt you are saying it is a big risk take a job as f/o expact pilot but it would be a difference with pic experience in medium jet, at the moment to looking for a job as cap with both heavy F/O and CAP medium jets?.:ok:

david16 Yes I think it is a big risk joining as a F/O. If you have previous command time that should stand you in good stead I would have thought. I do not know what SQ are telling people like you at interviews. I would guess they would want a minimum of x years and hours on type before considering you for command but you will always be behind nationals. There is no history in SQ yet of dealing with experienced F/O's as in the past expat F/O's were taken in as semi Cadets. Over the years most left after their long Bonds were over ( 7 years I think it was) but a few have got their commands and are still here. One left after 500 hours command on the B777 to go to KAL a few years ago which did not please them!!

[QUOTE=dabrat]Unfortunately Millerscourt is saying is all true.
The SIA Cargo job is good for Expat Captains( they make on average 18000sgd a month) and only have to fly 40 hours! It is semi retitrement. That is not going to last anyway. The plan is to start working them up to AOC (CAAS limits) which are higher than the Association limits, less time outside Singapore so less money on the daily allowance but more flying hours (which will equate to a little more in flying allowance but less in daily allowance so about the same thing or actually a little less in earnings!) 2 sector Double crews to Europe, minimum rest and back, etc...!!
No more dead heading on the passenger aircraft, will be on the freighter, and many more surprises. the profit sharing is about to change, check the latest advert (it says based on SIA Group AND/OR SIA Cargo)...sneaky..which ever is lower I believe!
QUOTE]
dabrat...
Well, you have some of the facts correct. It's just like semi-retirement (might want to get a dictionary), I'm off just about 14 days a month. Last year's IR8 was better than you might expect for being in semi-retirement.
The plan was to have us fly to the AOC, however, the scheduling computer can't do that, and it's too expensive to change. In addition, a quick look at the aircraft routing shows you can only really get 1-11/2 more days of work out pilots based on the aircraft routings. At no point in the immediate future will Cargo be staffed by only Cargo pilots. Thus, mainline will always have a part of the flying. Having the mainline CA limits just how much can be done. In addition, with rescheduling and other operational issues, what you suggest will never come to pass.
No more deadheading on pax aircraft!!! Dream on. The basic problem is the freighter doesn't fly daily to all the cargo destinations, thus the only way to position the crews is via the pax fleet.
I'd suggest you don't speculate on the profit sharing unless you have a contract. Since you mentioned the ad, here is the link and you can check for yourself. http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf SATS and SIAEC have the same language, however, just like us (Cargo) this year their bonus is on the entire group's performance. Our profit sharing this year is 3.1 months.
:ok:

Phil, Dabrat and Millerscourt thank you for you comments as Dabrat said it`s not a perfect job but I think the perfect job it does not exist and i see there are different point of views inside de SIAcargo and i respect that, may be for some one who is looking for a professional improvement it could be a good chance.
:ok: Thank you guys.

Mainline guys already fly to the AOC limits (1000 hrs ) so there is no difference there.

In any case you cannot get 1000 stick hours out of the mainline people because expat cpts would have to do abt 93 hrs a month to achieve that.

Anything over 85 hrs is going to cost the company $220/hr so that is just not going to happen.

NOT ONLY READING.....I 'M WONDERING HOW IS POSSIBLE - LEFT COASTER FLIES 75 HOURS AND IS VERY ACTIVE HERE, HM....

only this: next 50 h u will fly as pax (50 +50 = 100), :ugh

Cargojack I disagree. On the local terms it will possible after 7 years, however Left Coaster mentioned that it will last 5 years, true but after this period they will take FO's for the P-Position not for command, small details but very important.

NO COMMAND FOR EXPAT F/O
 

sorry warden,

no offence but the few blokes i have met have not been given command.

yes some fools even changed over to local terms and they jumped from the frying pan in to the fire.

give us a name mate!!!!

yes they promise you that but getting it is a big difference. just remember a command course in SQ goes on for 9 months or more as many locals can barely fly in cat 1 minimums thats why they have many expats.even a 10 kt cross wind is a big achivement for them.

over to you

I wouldn't argue with most of what you just said CJ, but I would disagree with your comments about local F/Os.

Without exception, every local I have flown with has been professional, enthusiastic and extremely helpful.:ok:

Really...Last time I looked it WAS 75 hrs...want a copy of my roster? Sorry its mine...Granted not all months are that high but this one is...Or are you implying something else?:=

LC, would you mind quoting how much flying you did each month over the last 12 months?

Management describe the average monthly cargo flying done by Mainline and Cargo Captains as being 67 hours.

If I am doing 25 this month and many Cargo Captains are doing 40 or less, the Mainline guys are doing well over 67 in order to bring the average up to that figure.

Notwithstanding what this disparity means, the word inequality comes to mind, the difficulty is we were told and it remains in writing that the average flying and per diem pay would be $7000 per month.

Many based their calculations on this statement, which is a very fair calculation when assessing the merits of this job over the last job.

As it happens, we are having some difficulty in recruiting Captains and First Officers. It is thought the reasons are to do with remuneration, and that the word is out: the money and flying is not as advertised.

Cargo's Management are considering what changes need to be made, which is a welcome sign.

If you come from a LCC, readufive, that's fine. If you are coming as a First Officer, you have undoubtedly factored in the chances of upgrading to Command. I wish you well.

In that this on-going thread's primary conflict is just a matter of different points of view, as david16 states, I beg to differ.

Perception is subjective, finances are objective. As we are primarily talking about money and flying hours, the matter is not accurately described as merely different points of view.

The website advertisement states quite clearly that pilots can expect to draw an average of $7000 per month in flight pay and per diems.

Objectively, this isn't happening, which is why many pilots are concerned.

...sick of editing...

I would like to stick my oar in about local First Officers:

SIA has done well to keep them flying the Cargo line.

Long may it continue.

4PW's The latest SQ Cargo website shows for Captains it is now S$5500 per month and for F/O's $4500 per month to be expected.

4PW´s
 

Surely...this month is higher than others, and taking into account leave(s) my average since becoming productive works out to 50 per...
I too looked at the advertised flight pay and then took a figure off of it for advertising. Simple experience has jaded me somewhat and after looking at what was offered at other similar operators (and histories in the industry) made the jump. I havent had the full year deal to look at (soon) to finish my books but so far I have no complaints. Those who might look at the amounts quoted as gospel should realise that an airline schedule is liquid, and to think that a paycheck is going to be the same every month is a bit hopeful. Having said that, I do think a more balanced roster needs to be in place, and that efficient planning of scheds has to happen. All in all its just a job, and I learned a long time ago that no matter how much you want it to be perfect, it doesnt quite get there. Hope the system can improve for us all...
Cheers,:ok:

SQ FIRST OFFICERS
 

dear readers,

SQ first officers are not exposed to real flying. what i mean is they are all well read and conversent with SOP/FCOM this and that procedures, but when it comes to handling they are very marginal.

can you imagine the SQ command course is between 9-12 months. why do you suppose this? average hours before command 6500-7000-P2.

as i said earlier these lads are happy to fly with expats for they learn a lot maybe all no good habits but they learn the most important of all " SELF CONFIDENCE". important they get many sectors when flying with the cargo fleet.

all though SQ treats the Cargo lads with step motherly treatment they appreciate the experience dispersed to the young cadets.

the mainline rats have the highest percentage for "unstable apporaches" are made by these blokes. for them ancourage in winter, carnasie in NY is a major hurdle and stress.
thats why friends, during winter we end up doing most of the demanding landings.

the cargo jocks have a wealth of experience.

think a minute

wasn't it a cargo jock who attempted a flaps up takeoff in HKG last year?

And wasn't it also a cargo jock who configured to Flaps 1 at 8 miles in ANC last year summer.... finally selecting his landing flaps 30 at 192 kts (12 knots above Vfe for F.30), touching down deadstick at 190 kts (50 kts above Vref of 140 kts) without actually having flaps 30 becoz of the flap load relief...?

CARGOJOCK

would you care to elaborate further with more details (like what gengis posted) or are you just shooting in the dark.. please either put up factually or , regrettably, shut up!. also please provide elaboration on the "we do most of the tough landings" comment.

cheers

Thank you for the replies, LC and Millerscourt.

It's been my privilege to work as an expat for some time now.

I describe it thus not because living abroad is any better than living back home, but because it has broadened my mind.

And in that time, I've seen a lot of ignorance. The dumb-ass post from Jock is an example. You give expats a bad name, pal.

Gengis, you might need to consider the effect of your post.

Airing our dirty laundry, which it is, brings the company into disrepute. The incidents you have so flagrantly exposed are firmly dealt with in-house. At this stage, you have achieved nothing more than to degrade your colleagues.

Couldn't have said it better!!!

The worst day at SQ/SQC is better than the best day at other carriers I've worked at.

CLARIFICATION ON SQ CARGO
 

dear folks,

firstly the truth hurts.

i am not shooting in the dark as one implyed,i know so. as a discreet channel of information names are excluded.

as gengis mentioned those incidents are quite normal in SQ read the safety booklet, hence was the introduction "1000 feet stabilised no flags" , " RWY xxx IDENTIFIED" this after the taipei crash.
the system is what has caused it. captains are not supposed to give landings to FO as per the FAM-flight administration manual if wind crosswind more that X amount,rain, snow, certain airfileds due runway lenghts etc , all this has caused the young FO not to experience real flying with hands on stick and rudder.
only the expat captains would let the FO experience such situations as they have better experiences out of the system.
FO land in cavok light winds clear blue skies GREAT!!! no no...

hence when it comes to their command the poor chaps struggle to make it that is why a command upgrade course is 9-12 months.!!!!!!!!!!

as for the tough landings YES all the mainline rats locals especially avoid ancourage during winter. dublin due field length and they take their leave during this period. thats right finer details maybe you guys had not noticed.

SQ cargo is acceptable not ideal as there is a disparity in the TC. however i would only ask that the COP are made productive instead of all the paxing around.ref SQC web site allowances have been revised to lower figures.

keep firing...........lads

guys, stop complaining, you've gotten the job and are flying, that's what counts, the passion.

i've still got to will till 26 to apply thanks to the concerned government.

the sia website says [successful candidates will be offered employment with sia/silkair/sia cargo] based on what i've read, being with sia is much better than sia cargo. how do they post the fresh trainees? pro'er ones to sia and the noobs to sia cargo?

Cargo Jock, both of the said incidences were by SQC EXPATS inside a span of six months, showing off their "wealth of experience" which all the impressionable locals love to learn from...

How will the company know who are the "pros" and who are the "noobs"? They don't. It is all based on time and space. Main fleet needs more pilots? Next course cadets are going to the main fleet. Silkair needs more pilots? Grab a couple from the next course.

And I find your statement about "noobs being posted to sia cargo" offensive.

Sorry, what I meant was maybe they post new cadets according to how they did during training.

You're implying that its more of random luck that new cadets go to sia cargo or sia, when this thread suggests that sia pilots are better off? Not very fair isn't it?

Gengis, do you really want to open that can of worms?

Calm down, gentleman......
 

Calm down, gentlmen.....Here is a poor pilot who even don't have job.
I understand there is a conflict among us. I have seen in my previous company. The military and civil pilot's dispute about flying skill.

But let's calm down.

I also think this kind of "flying skill" is not a proper subject which post in this forum.

Let's not fight for nothing. At least, I admire all you guys as a nice propessional pilots.

Anyway I'm in deep trouble. I know just one phone call can solve it but Hee Hee Hee...well....I'm a coward.:O

Is there anybody who have any notice from SIA cargo after interview.
I had interview on may. I know it usually take 4-6 weeks but Do they also call or email to everybody? ( I mean not only for successful candidate but also who doesn't make it)

many thanks.

Nobody is immune
 

Hello Gents.

Compliments to Phil Squares for trying to add decorum to some rather inconsiderate statements.

Cargo Jock.... I have been in SIA far longer than you, and your statements are the kind that not only give expats a bad name, but also tempt fate. I assume you sleep very well at night knowing that you will NEVER have an incident or accident, as your operation is so superior to many others.

I know that I will never sleep as well as you, because I will never feel immune.

I also suggest you learn how to spell ANCHORAGE, seeing as you make so many references to it.


I also agree with PS that airing in-house flight safety data in a public forum is not very professional.

If you would have the guts to identify yourself Cargo Jock, I will look forward to flying with you, and you opening my eyes to what you seem to know so well about SIA/SQC.

Until then, I trust your sweeping statements, and disdain for your local co-pilots, will not catch up with you too terribly.

Yep Like 'In the slot' I am one of Cargo Jock's "Mainline Rats" who has many more flights with local pilots than he has managed in his short stay with SIA.
Saying that we and especially local Capts avoid Anchorage in winter- makes good, ego salving cockpit banter and the odd dimwit may believe such nonsense but it simply isnt true. Anchorage is no big deal in winter Cargo Jock, except for you perhaps, and is no different to any other European, Asian or American destination in inclement wx.
I suggest you avoid your devisive rants Cargo Jock. If you were more objective you would take the cargo COPS and rearrange them to make all cargo pilots more productive yourself. Believe me, if there is a way to get less 'paxing' done with the same amount of pilots, SIA would love to hear from you. Your superior abilities should be put to better use so dont hold back, go in and show management how they are slipping up on pilot productivity. It can only improve your flying and time away.

Anybody knows about how long is the ground and line training and if you have some free days between each one, or you have to be in singapore during all the process:ok:

blade 747
The course can take anything between 3 and 5 months to be on line, depending on Simulator availability and aircraft. There is plenty of time off between various events. If there is a delay in sim you may well find you are sent on forced leave as SQ like to get rid of this whilst you are unproductive.On my course years ago local F/O's who were not able to be slotted into the sim for three days were forced to take these three days as leave!!

If you leave Singapore during days off it will be at your expense as there is no entitlement to tickets until 6 months in the company. Unlikely that you will get enough days off in a row during the training to go anywhere except close by unless it is taken as leave.

Thank you millerscourt for your replay and how many sectors I have to do to my line check?

WHY!!!!!!!!!
 

dear sir,

do you agree that a command course for the local lads on the 744 or 777 take 9-12 months to complete?.

if so why?...... i can tell you so because they have only landed in CAVOK less than 5 knots. some lads when they are due for command they refuse sectors, so i asked why so they cannot muck it up!!!! yes thats how tense they are....
command should be a change of seat most of the lads taking command have 6500-7000 hours what a waste. they are hardly given sectors most of them love to fly with expats as they give them more flying experience.

as for the rosters the mainline rats sorry for the reference but it is true you guys treat the cargo lads like trash, you take all the plum cargo flights why don' you change fleets the pax 744 fleet is dying and you must learn to change over to new technology.

Cargo Jock
You seem to believe there is some kind of raging argument between you and me over Copilot to Capt training in SIA. There is no discussion in my post about this subject. I suggest you read what "In the Slot" had to say to you again and answer him, since my comments were in full support of his view.
My particular argument with you is --
1) Your devisive referal to me and the 300 odd SIA mainline 744 Capts as "Mainline Rats". You are constructing a division between us that I believe most of your Cargo compatriots don't want. Perhaps we could hear from some of them on this matter.
2)That you are imbued with superior flying skills which are forced into use when we supposedly avoid Anchorage and Dublin during winter. This nonsense is born out of your ego and a paranoid imagination.

"as for the rosters the mainline rats sorry for the reference but it is true you guys treat the cargo lads like trash, you take all the plum cargo flights why don' you change fleets the pax 744 fleet is dying and you must learn to change over to new technology"

This last statement is juvenile and it is a bit worrying that such a lack of logic exists in the mind of one of our operating Capts. Precisely how do I/we 'treat cargo pilots as trash' and why would I/we even want to. None of us writes our own rosters so we are incapable of 'taking the plum flights'. Your comments about changing fleets and new technology are pointless within your argument.

We fly the rosters we are given, wether it be summer or winter, within the boundaries of a bidding system that allows us about 4 bids/flights per year--- just like you.

I refer you back to the main thrust of my previous post.

"I suggest you avoid your devisive rants Cargo Jock. If you were more objective you would take the cargo COPS and rearrange them to make all cargo pilots more productive yourself. Believe me, if there is a way to get less 'paxing' done with the same amount of pilots, SIA would love to hear from you".

blade747 Line Training about 8 Sectors which was what I did but I had been to most of the places in the SQ network before.

I will not get involved in the rant elsewhere on this thread.

Chimbudzi - I could not agree with you more - well said.

CargoJock your statement ".......... but it is true you guys treat the cargo lads like trash," is way off the mark. I will give you that a few of the more senior old crusty boys may be derisive, but most of us "mainline rats" as you so eloquently call us, would sympathise with cargo guys.

The reason that a command course takes 9-12 months here, is beacuse of the system that is used - it is archaic and far too long, but that is the system they ( the management) use, and it is not because the F/Os do not not how to fly or handle adverse conditions. This is a punitive airline, and who can argue with the attitude of first officers that would rather let the captain be the PF when conditions are challenging.