Orient Thai
 

Recently I knocked on the door of Orient Thai airlines and was told that if I go there with a 747 type rating and no time on aircraft but with a good attitude, I would be considered for a job. My question is: Why can't they find enough qualified people? They have been hiring for quite some time it looks like and now they are willing to hire without the 500 hours on type. What do you guys think my chances are? Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't go anywhere near them. I wonder why they can't seem to attract any experience????

That is exactly what I am wondering.........:confused:

From what I've been told, the airplanes are marginally maintained, and SOP's do not exist. If you are desperate for a job, or need to build those precious heavy jet PIC time for the next job, this is probably the place for that. Good luck!

The 747 pay is very low. About $5000 USD for Capt. and $3000 for F/O and F/E. You must provide your own accomodations in BKK. Roster doesn't allow for commuting. High turnover. Hajj. Many crews furloughed earlier this year. Operation uses local and foreign crews. Etc., etc., etc.

Well, I know many will scorn me for this, but this is real good opportunity IMHO. This would be a true gem of a position for a recently retired captain or SFO from one of the mainline carriers in the west who has just left the 742/743. The pay is satisfactory and really, quiet frankly allows for a very high standard of living. Indeed, having spent 4 years based in bkk I can honestly say that such money being offered would facilitate even the most hedonistic of lifestyles. To put it into perspective... a QUALIFIED english teacher in Bkk at the moment is pulling in about 35000 - 40,000 B a month. This would allow for a reasonable standard of living - about the same as an average mid class western lifestyle. If you dont believe me, go ask them. The salary being offered by Orient Thai works out at 225,000 Baht Roughly speaking. So...go figure. I stand by it, despite previous counter replies, a good relatively centrally located apartment can be had for 10000 Baht a month. 15000 tops. I do know of at least 1 individual living close to the airport (about 15-20 km from Sukhumvit area) paying 6000Baht a month ( ~ $130 a month). This person has a 2 bedroom clean apartment with balcony and good security. This is the norm not the exception. And please, dont use on line apartment sites as guide prices - of course they are going to charge 4-5 more for next to the same thing. I am saying that with just a little bit of networking at a local level, excellent apartment rates can be had.
So frankly speaking, in summary, the type of person that these positions would most likely suit are
(a) A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside, and who is interested in making some more money in wonderful tropical environment. The main motivation should not be the money but the lifestyle that can be had and also the ability to remain current on the 742/743 and enjoy a nice variety of flying.
(b) A 742/743 rated individual who is presently looking for work and cannot secure a flying job in their home country/continent.

If you fit either of the above criteria, particularly (a), DONT bash the pay issue. Chances are such pay will allow you to live the highest standards you have ever lived before.

Well well Topmann. If you can find an apartment for B6000 then I wonder if it is under a park bench. A nice house near the airport will cost you B40,000 a month exc utilities. I should know as I live in Bangkok. Remember the small issue of tax. 40% of income sound familiar. Get your facts straight my friend and if anyone who wishes to fly around in a Classic for a year or so , why not go somewhere where your experience and ability is recognised.

Now that topman has given his reasons FOR, I will present the AGAINST.

(a) They are not paying MARKET price for any Captain, let alone an experienced B747 one;

(b) The miserable salary allows for "a very high standard of living", IF you are willing to expend ALL of it, and save NONE;

(c) Now HERE'S the teller, "A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside".
In other words, be prepared to have to dip into your savings, to subsidise this job.

(d) "A 742/743 rated individual who is presently looking for work and cannot secure a flying job in their home country/continent." Read for this, "Standards are at the bottom end of the scale - rejects welcome!!"
Why do those two sentences seem to contradict each other? "DONT bash the pay issue."...in other words, the pay is :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:, followed by,
"Chances are such pay will allow you to live the highest standards you have ever lived before."...to be read as, "If you are a reject, EXTREMELY wealthy and willing to fork out some of your OWN money, or come from a country where rentals are about "~$130 a month", or less, then we can shaft you accordingly!

Orient Thai - YOU are the weakest link!

TM999;
Most retirees would like [or may need] to either;
a. retire [!] or
b. keep flying

If b. : most professionals would desire to work on well-maintained equipment in a company with reasonable safety standards. A fair salary comensurate with skill and experience would also be expected. However, I do understand that the opportunity work in your own particular idea of "paradise" may offset the salary issues if continuing flying is more important than monetary reward.
However, OX fails miserably on the equipment/safety/remuneration issues. Unless you desperately need to live in BKK and/or are equally in need of flying with a demonstrably shaky operation, then I wouldn't recommend the OX experience.
Now I will admit that I know and have known a few desperates who've given the OX a go. ALL have done a quick exit, citing a litany of outrageous safety breaches.
Dunno if I'd want that kinda thing in my retirement job. For the hours builder, remember, not all hours are treated equally by the more reputable prospective employers...
:sad: :sad:

The income is taxed??? The Orient Thai advertisement suggests that potential applicants consider "your personal tax situation" when weighing the merits of OX. That would be somewhat misleading if in fact the Thai's were forcing foreign pilots to pay tax.

I’m in no position to comment on Orient Thai, but I can on BKK living.

Acceptable apartments (and even houses) can be found for 6k per month providing you don’t mind living off the beaten track. However, unless you speak adequate Thai and have a means of transport then this isn’t really an option, more so if you have a family. However I don’t accept you need to pay 40K. Good accommodation can be readily found for less than half of this amount. Utilities can cost another 7-8K per month.

Additionally, the government recently announced that the current easing of work permit restrictions for foreign pilots would cease in about 1 year.

All foreign nationals working in Thailand pay income tax. (There are some exemptions but aviation isn’t one of them). Personal income tax is as follows based upon annual salary. It is worth noting that the tax is amortised over 12 months, so if employment finishes mid tax year you may have a problem.
In theory overpaid tax is recoverable, in practice it isn’t:-

1-80,000 baht =0
80,001 - 100,000 =5%
100,001 -500,000 =10%
500,001 -1,000,000 =20%
1,000,001 - 4,000,000 =30%
4,000,001 - and up =37%

:}

Well chaps if you're divorced the kids have left home and never visit. The ex is sleeping with your old FO (Thank God) The good old company has given you a rolex (fake gold, batteries not included) and a pat on the back wispering good luck in your retirment. You've lost most of your cash on nightstops with loose women. Even the Flight attendants due for retirement won't sleep with you.

Well head on down to VTBD on an Annie 4A. Beers, Bar,girls :mad: Jobs, :mad: licks and F word till you die.

:} :mad: Sounds like me!!!!!!!!!!

Errr!!! you guys got that address again??????????.

From foreign worker....

"(c) Now HERE'S the teller, "A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside".
In other words, be prepared to have to dip into your savings, to subsidise this job."

U R incorrect. What I mean is that one cannot expect to come home after say 5 years (or any number of yrs in the relative short term for that matter) with a lot of money. I am not saying savings from the west will need to be touched, I am saying that this job will not provide much money for retirement IF the said pilot retires in the west.
I wonder how much UA, CX or BA pay their 747 captains. My guess is somewhere between $150k - $200k per yr. So in other words 3-4 times orient Thai, yet it is well known that cost of living in Hong Kong/London/Chicago is easily 10 times that of Bangkok. See where Im going...its called being relative. How could any western 747 pilot expect western 747 pilot wages in bkk given the above comparison. Its ridiculous. The present offer is at the very worst fair, and frankly speaking I think its a good offer.
Mgt are very approachable as well I am told

And besides good cuisine, there are other luscious benefits in this wonderful monsoon mecca of pleasure, eh? :)

" How could any western 747 pilot expect western 747 pilot wages in bkk?"
Because if they are looking for "western B747 qualified pilots", that is what they are going to have to pay.
Their retail pricing of their product reflects they charge "western prices"!!

Or are you saying that Orient Thai is just another Asian sweat shop!

From other posters on this thread, it seems to me that Orient Thai is being run on a shoestring, and is cutting corners wherever possible.

I, for one, would NOT want to be onboard any of their aircraft in ANY capacity, knowing this.

Topman,
Your salary packages for the big boys aren't close. However this is not about salary, if OX were a reasonably safe organisation your arguments would hold water. Unfortunately, the fact is that only Capt Wooblah makes a creditable argument in favour of joining.
By all means, go to BKK, I think it is a great place for some RnR, including a few beers with the nice approachable chaps of OX. As far as Orient Thai go as an airline; this is a Professional Pilots forum and you have my and others' professional opinions. Opinions based on 2nd hand, but trusted knowledge. Have to agree with FW's sentiments.

Thanks for all of your inputs guys. I appreciate it.

Varig, are you ready for the 747 type now?

Accom
 

Toppman,

I appreciate your comments and Thailand is a great place to work and OX is a good company which is getting better. However, your prices on apartments are way out. I don't know what you expect to live in, but I won't live like a dog, because others do or will. If you are going to live here, do yourself a favour and gets some desent digs. Unless of course you are from Bangladesh and anything will do - perhaps share a room with 10 others....now there's an idea.

Reality, if you want something half decent, then you will shell out B20 000 for a decent place....minimum!

i've just been down to bangkok and caught up with some orient thai blokes on the 757, if even half the stories are true i'd give it a wide wide bearth, certainly as an f/o. nothing about the company sounded good. quite a few furloughed us pilots, they have a few guys from good backgrounds as f/o's and some as capt's but the rest are appalling by all accounts. bangkok did seem very cheap though if thats any consilation.

MJpilot,

Almost ready for it. I hope everything works out good.

Foreign Worker,

The reality of the situation is that there are an army of captains, FOs and FE lining up trying to get interviews with Orient Thai. My source. I do know for a fact that more than a few very experienced western typed rated pilots and FE have not even reached the interview stage due to the demand for the positions. Like it or not there IS a real demand out there to work for Orient Thai. They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them. From what I have been told (and this seems to contradict other posts) the pilots are happy with whats on offer and so to are mgt. I do know one captain there who is from the US and met him after about 2 months working there. He was beeming from ear to ear the whole time. Simply delighted with the whole package offered. But alas, I suppose I will be beaten down here yet again for refusing to adopt this "bash the asian airlines" culture so prevelant here.

Iso,
I simply get no "kick" or pleasure out of telling you that THERE ARE good quality 2 bedroom apartments available in bkk for 6000B a month. Anybody who knows anything about thailand will tell you that over the past 15 yrs one of the few things that have not incrased in prices are the cost of renting apartments. I have seen my friends apartment for 6000B by the way, and frankly speaking it is above that of the average 2 bed aprtment available in the west and has good security too.
Further Iso, I feel it highly inappropriate and insensitive for you to come on here and make smart and downright racist remarks against people from Bangladesh. This is really not called for at all. Get your facts in order before mouthing off such nonsense like that please.

Well Toppman I can't resist having a go at your latest post. Topmann living living in squalor sounds great!! If all you can allow yourself in Bangkok is a 6000 per month room flying for OX then enjoy it !! as I'm sure that everyone else would rather live in a 30,000 house and live at the accustomed standard of living expected to which you have obviously been deprived of during your time in the twilight zones.
Bangkok is a enjoyable place to live but you must live WELL!
Your'e only here once so why not enjoy it

Toppman,

If there are lots of pepple in line for a job with Orient Thai, then why would they keep on posting on most aviation websites? Have you seen the latest one? It was posted today and you don't even need to be a member to read it. Check it out on climbto350.com

topman... agree with what you said about the pilots - have heard similar myself. However, you're mad to say/think that 6000Baht will get you a two bedroom apt. I lived at Ekamai Soi 63 in the Grand Hi Tech which is moreorless the city centre and I paid 8000Baht for a room that was a bed and tv and not enough room for anything else and that was 1999... so, that's first hand. Got a lot of mates in BKK working in various fields and the norm for a western style 1 bedroom is at least 20 000Baht.

topman999,
You are full of it!
Within the last week I have spoken to an F/O (from the US) who went there, and voluntarily left - post haste - within 4 days, simply because Orient Thai are operating with NO Operating Procedures.

They are an accident, looking for somewhere - ANYWHERE - to happen!

The long used proverb of "You pay peanuts to get MONKEYS" was never truer than in this case.

Monkeys, feel free to apply,
To Orient Thai!

I think topman must be on the recruiting team!

A friend applied and was offered a job in an email message. No interview. No phone call. I think its safe to say that the statement ".......have not even reached the interview stage due to the demand for the positions" is not accurate. Its not that sort of airline. Its more like "got a pulse + got a type = got a job".

Lets do the math. A Captain would make about 3500USD after the tax is paid. Minus rent (and I wouldnt count on finding a 6000B place, probably much more), electric and water. Minus mobile phone. Minus food. Minus transportation. What could possibly remain? What kind of Captain could you get for that?

Clearly all is not well at OT. But I've got a good mate there who's flying as an FO right now. Just the other day he was driving a tractor in Germany 14 hours a day because some idiots went and flew into a couple of buildings.

Great job? Clearly not. Opportunity to get career, family and life back on track as well as put bread on the table? What do you think...?

"I think topman must be on the recruiting team!

A friend applied and was offered a job in an email message. No interview. No phone call"

Now really, who is "full of it here" ???

"But I've got a good mate there who's flying as an FO right now. Just the other day he was driving a tractor in Germany 14 hours a day because some idiots went and flew into a couple of buildings"

The utter stupidity of this statement does not even worthy comment.

And for the fun of it lets take another one...

"Orient Thai are operating with NO Operating Procedures"

See reply to last comment above.

Perhaps to the non biased readers they will see the rubbish coming through and can see it for what it is

yyzdub,

I agree with you that 1/2/3 bed apartments can be had for 20/30k a month but my point is that that there ARE GOOD apartments available for 6k+. Maybe if certain "big ass, big ego" captains actually got their finger out and did some research instead of going through some "agent" (what can any1 expect regarding prices if this is the way they go) than they would actually see whats going on for real.

I can honestly say that I dont have a horse in the race. My posts have all been factual. I think its important for anyone considering Orient Thai to know the full story.

A company that has "no problem attaining excellent crews" would surely not need to place ads every couple of weeks with a note that its "urgent".

Whats your connection to Orient Thai topman? I really dont expect you to answer that honestly, but I thought I would ask anyway.

Sorry Toppman if things really are as you say, however I just got back from Bkk and had a few beers with some current and ex OX chaps:
1. Rental and cost of living: THB6000/mth doesn''t get you anything like a comfortable lifestyle in a good area. OK for a young single guy on a shoestring maybe. My mate's place near Nana is a nothing special; a tired 2 bed flat that costs THB28000/mth - found for him by his Thai girlfriend. It does have a pool and gym.
2. Retaining crews: your story is: rubbish. Not only commanders but management as well have departed the scene after a short tenure. Why?
3. Safety issues; ALLEGEDLY: SOP's [!], publications [jepps], training [err - go and pick up your training captain in HKG! on a type you haven't flown for years], recurrent sim checks [more licences signed than bodies in attendence], maintenance [non reporting of AOG defects, not carrying out basic turnaround checks etc], min hrs and experience sub-standard F/O's, F/E's - well apparently not needed on the 2-pilot L1011! This is not an exhaustive list as related to me by Pilots and EX-management but I think you get the actualised picture...

"My mate's place near Nana is a nothing special; a tired 2 bed flat that costs THB28000/mth - found for him by his Thai girlfriend"

Hmmm my earlier remark about "big ass, bid ego" crews some to mnid again. Dont you think Spleener that it is more likely that his girlfriend is creaming some that cash off on top of the rent and than just refering the price of 28k / month to him ??? Reason I say that is ask ANY local thai about paying 28k on a average looking apartment around the nana area and you will know what I mean. Again, use ur common sense.
Regarding the other issues of having ads on line asking for crews urgently...It is a legal requiremnt of most airlines that hire foreign crews to give every full opportunity to local pilots first. This may well be what they are doing here. In every profession, jobs are advertised for even though the position may well be filled already as it is a legal requirement to at least present the position opportunity to the public. A little sly, perhaps, but this happens in every profession in every country if we are honest about it

Orient Thai
 

I see that OT has another AD on Climbto350 today for the B747/757. Not the "urgent" posting this time. I have received an email offer subject to getting the rating! To me sounds strange that a carrier will hire without interviewing , having a medical or sim eval? Regardless of this company is a T/R worth the cost when most companies still want the min time on type?

Come on "top man" - who are you? You feel that you need to defend Orient Thai in almost every single post you have made.

May I reflect on some of your previous quips...
"I am saying that with just a little bit of networking at a local level," - so at this point in time, you are advising us to go to the "local level", to try to get cheaper accomodation.
But then, when one of the guys does, you admonish him with this, "Dont you think Spleener that it is more likely that his girlfriend is creaming some that cash off on top of the rent and than just refering the price of 28k / month to him ???"
Now if a guy can't trust his "local level" girlfriend to get the best rate for him, WHO can he trust?
Then you say, "ask ANY local thai about paying 28k on a average looking apartment around the nana area and you will know what I mean."
No, I DO NOT know what you mean!!

First you say one thing - then you say another, topman!

You, topman, also stated, "They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them. but then we (the rest of the world) see that Orient Thai is STILL advertising for crews, despite your statement, "The reality of the situation is that there are an army of captains, FOs and FE lining up trying to get interviews with Orient Thai.",
and,
"They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them.".

Let us cut to the chase, top man. IF you want properly qualified, PROFESSIONAL crews flying your airplane(s) - people who will take care NOT to damage them (why do you think some people can't work in their own countries??), and preserve your cashflow, you're going to have to pay market rates.

IF you are happy to have some misfits, and inexperienced guys who want to use your airplane(s) as a semi-disposable piece of training equipment, hen go right ahead.
You'll soon learn that you get EXACTLY what you've paid for.

Guys with any integrity are NOT going to hang around a shonky operator.

Operators of integrity do NOT want shonky pilots.

You make your bed, you lie/fly in it!

Okay so maybe I haven't seen this straight:

For the new-guy:
You get paid peanuts to live in substandard accommodation, fly poorly maintained equipment, getting experience[s] that no future employer would credit as worthwhile. But, hey the sex is cheap.
For the retiree:
As above except that you don't need the hours.
That's it.
Therefore: Gotta take this job because the sex is cheap.:ugh:

So if you take a job with OT, EVERYONE gets to get right royally screwed, at the cheapest possible price!!

Right?
You are really just making a lot of this up as you go along, aren't you topman. That statement is a load of baloney!

I am in the same situation as you. Get the type, get the job.

Topman barred from the thread. While I know many of you were finding allowing him to dig deeper holes for himself entertaining there are a few poor souls falling for this odious hokum.

Topman - fantasist or recruiter? Well the answer is a bit of both as any of you with two brain cells to rub together will have found when you've viewed this unsubtle idiot's previous posts. Judgment really does fly out of the window along with your intelligence if you believe a word from this jerk.

Topman is preying on the helpless, desperate and naive. However, anyone getting a rating on the basis of a start with this bunch is hollering from the shallow end of the gene pool and deserves every last bit of the crap that goes with this outfit. You have been consistently warned by your peers. For those intellectually dwarfed by a demented bumble bee here it is again.


The airline? We very strongly recommend you don't touch them with a bargepole.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

PS - The perceptive, experienced and thought provoking views of this mittyesque, braindead vegetable are best viewed on this Rumours and News thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=4

Since that outstanding debut topman has hidden out in places like this.

Not in the race whatsoever but there seems to be a bit of conflict going on here in regards to rents in BKK.

I'm not defending Topman or siding with anyone here but since I work for a US carrier and live in Thailand I think do have some factual input here.

First of all, yes, if you want to live in the "exclusive" expat neighborhood you will pay, i.e. Sukhumvit, Ekamai, Nana, Silom etc. Yes, you will be very comfortable with 20 Starbucks within 10 minute walk. Skytrain that will whisk you and your Thai girlfriend from Patpong to Nana in 5 minutes. A nice place on Wireless road will set you back 40,000-60,000 baht/ mo ($1000-$1500 USD).

What Topman is refering to is places outside those areas. Yes, you can get a nice two bedroom near the airport for 6,000 baht/ mo ($150 USD/ Comfort Suit Condo/ Hotel). So it will take you no more than 200 baht ($5 USD, and I'm being very generous here). to go from airport to the Sukhumvit area in 20 min.

It's all relative gents. If you were to live in HKG, you would definitely pay more on the island in the mid level area or in Kowloon for less than half the cost. Yeah, so it'll take you a bit longer to get to the local watering hole but what is your priority here?

If you are hired by OX or even thinking of putting an app in for OX then you are bottom feeding since you are looking job that doesn't pay so well, no sop, no benefits etc... If you are furloughed with seniority number with US carrier then it's a fun break while waiting for the recall. But if you are there becuase no one else wants to hire you for what ever reason then which area you live in is not your first priority. Bangkok is a very safe city. It's not the Thais but other farangs that will do you in.

Beggars can't be choosers. If this is not the case then all this is a moot point anyway.

If you are that desperate then the last thing you would want to worry about is living in the exclusive area paying out the ass while working for OX???

If you work for a US 121, Cathay, JAL etc. pulling in $100k+/ year and living in Thailand then go ahead and move into the nice neighborhood with a Benz in your car port. But otherwise, live within your means.

I hope I've cleared up some housing issues here but then again, may be not...

Sounds like you have the best of both worlds!!!!!!:ok: