SIA crew to take unpaid leave (merged)
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SIA pilots get more than CX pilots ! according to the Straits Times reporter. He has an obvious poor handle on maths !
INSIGHT: An icon in the storm
SIA has been losing more than $6 million a day and says it not only has to cut wages but also reform its wage structure to beat the intense competition it was already facing even before the Sars scare. REBECCA LEE of the Political Desk takes a look at the global airline industry and considers SIA's case.
FASTEN your seat belts for a bumpy ride.
This has been a constant refrain in the global airline industry over the last three years with no respite from turbulent weather.
LUFTHANSA ADAPTS: A stewardess (right) from the German carrier takes health checks in her stride, together with the airline's new flexible work arrangement to help cut costs. -- AFP
Even before Sept 11, passenger numbers were falling with the global economic slowdown. Then after the terror attacks, there was the Bali bomb blast, the war in Iraq and now the outbreak of Sars. Add to that rising competition from low-cost carriers, which offer rock-bottom prices by cutting back on the frills.
Battered by Sept 11, airlines in North America and Europe are trying hard to ratchet down costs to survive.
Already, the industry worldwide has shed some 100,000 jobs and the International Air Transport Association (Iata) estimates that the global aviation industry has lost another US$10 billion (S$17.2 billion) this year alone, on top of losing US$31 billion over the past two years.
Asian carriers had emerged relatively unscathed from Sept 11. But now they have their own Sept 11 - the Sars outbreak.
SIA HAMMERED
SO what do the slashing of costs globally, and now Sars, mean for national icon Singapore Airlines, Asia's most profitable airline?
For one, it is clear that the effects have been of a severity never before seen in its history.
Sars-hit Asia has seen a 44.8-per-cent drop in air passenger traffic last month, against a global backdrop of an 18.5-per-cent slump.
SIA has cut its capacity by a-third as passenger traffic plunged 62.8 per cent in the second week this month from the start of the year.
Last month alone, the airline lost $204 million, or $6.8 million a day. Early indications are that the decline in passenger traffic has not abated. Next month, it expects to make its first quarterly loss.
Industry observers are confident that traffic will rebound from these highly depressed levels as Sars comes under control. But when and by how much is anyone's guess.
The prediction by SIA's recently retired chief executive officer Cheong Choong Kong is that full recovery may take up to two years.
The reason for this uncertainty is the psychological change in travel patterns in Asia, similar to that seen post-Sept 11, said investment bank JP Morgan's Hongkong-based regional airline analyst, Mr Peter Negline.
'Post-Sept 11, the revenue dynamic changed dramatically,' the analyst, who has been tracking the industry for a decade, told Insight.
In the US, and to some extent in Europe, a portion of discretionary travel - which comes from people's urge to take off on a whim to far-flung places - disappeared permanently.
'There is a deterioration in the appeal of air travel...in the US, the security and inconvenience mean it is no longer a relaxing experience.
'Post-Sars, I think we will go through a similar psychological change in travel patterns here in Asia,' he said.
POST-SARS EFFECT
WHILE airlines cannot control when passenger traffic will return, they can coax people to take to the skies again by working with governments and tourism bodies.
And so in Singapore and Hong Kong, thermal scanners have been installed at airports to ensure passengers are fever-free before they can board an aircraft. The machines serve another purpose: assuage fears that the disease may be contracted in a plane.
The Pacific Asia Travel Association (Pata) and Iata are also banding together to work on a marketing campaign to rebuild passenger confidence.
The efficacy of these enticements remains to be seen.
Meanwhile, since airlines cannot dictate their revenue, all they can do is to control costs.
'While you are waiting around for your revenue to recover, you must be as pro-active on your cost base as you can,' said Mr Negline.
SIA got its entire cabin crew to take seven days of no-pay leave every two months starting this month to save $14 million. Its 240 members of management will take pay cuts of between 22.5 per cent and 27.5 per cent from next month, saving the airline another $12 million.
However, these cuts amount to a mere 'drop in the ocean', said UOB-Kay Hian associate research director Peggy Mak. The airline's wage bill - its second largest cost component after fuel - for the year ended March this year came up to $1.4 billion, increasing by a quarter from the previous year. The reason is mainly the 3.23 months of profit-sharing bonus given to staff.
SIA's incoming chief executive, Mr Chew Choon Seng, has said the airline intends to slash staff-related costs by more than $200 million or some 14 per cent.
A key to that is to shrink the wage bill of the pilots, who make up 12 per cent of the airline's total staff, but account for almost a third of the total wage bill. SIA wants wage cuts of up to 22.5 per cent for the pilots plus compulsory no-pay leave.
Negotiations, however, with the pilots' union - the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (Alpa-S) - have reached a stalemate. The two sides are squabbling over the issue of SIA's 120 overseas-based pilots.
Alpa-S, which represents about 1,600 of SIA's 1,800 pilots, wants the airline to axe these pilots first before they will take a wage cut. They also argue that those based overseas have all along been given preferential treatment.
SIA, however, insists that these pilots, based in London, Los Angeles, Perth and Sydney, are all its employees even though they are technically employed by its wholly-owned subsidiary SIA Mauritius.
As a global company, it has to treat its employees equally. Otherwise the carrier, which derives 80 per cent of its income from outside Singapore, may find itself shunned by travellers unhappy with its discriminatory labour practices, it explained.
SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.
SIA is also proposing a 15-per-cent across-the-board wage cut for the rest of its 14,600 staff, but unions first want a reassurance that the cuts will be restored. Negotiations are still ongoing.
While the cuts are for immediate relief, it is clear also that they tie with the airline's moves to overhaul its seniority-based wage system and move towards a more performance-linked pay structure, in line with the National Wages Council's call.
The above is part of the article as published, the complete article can be seen below ..... if you can be bothered reading it !
http://www.straitstimes.com.sg/singa...92051,00.html?
INSIGHT: An icon in the storm
SIA has been losing more than $6 million a day and says it not only has to cut wages but also reform its wage structure to beat the intense competition it was already facing even before the Sars scare. REBECCA LEE of the Political Desk takes a look at the global airline industry and considers SIA's case.
FASTEN your seat belts for a bumpy ride.
This has been a constant refrain in the global airline industry over the last three years with no respite from turbulent weather.
LUFTHANSA ADAPTS: A stewardess (right) from the German carrier takes health checks in her stride, together with the airline's new flexible work arrangement to help cut costs. -- AFP
Even before Sept 11, passenger numbers were falling with the global economic slowdown. Then after the terror attacks, there was the Bali bomb blast, the war in Iraq and now the outbreak of Sars. Add to that rising competition from low-cost carriers, which offer rock-bottom prices by cutting back on the frills.
Battered by Sept 11, airlines in North America and Europe are trying hard to ratchet down costs to survive.
Already, the industry worldwide has shed some 100,000 jobs and the International Air Transport Association (Iata) estimates that the global aviation industry has lost another US$10 billion (S$17.2 billion) this year alone, on top of losing US$31 billion over the past two years.
Asian carriers had emerged relatively unscathed from Sept 11. But now they have their own Sept 11 - the Sars outbreak.
SIA HAMMERED
SO what do the slashing of costs globally, and now Sars, mean for national icon Singapore Airlines, Asia's most profitable airline?
For one, it is clear that the effects have been of a severity never before seen in its history.
Sars-hit Asia has seen a 44.8-per-cent drop in air passenger traffic last month, against a global backdrop of an 18.5-per-cent slump.
SIA has cut its capacity by a-third as passenger traffic plunged 62.8 per cent in the second week this month from the start of the year.
Last month alone, the airline lost $204 million, or $6.8 million a day. Early indications are that the decline in passenger traffic has not abated. Next month, it expects to make its first quarterly loss.
Industry observers are confident that traffic will rebound from these highly depressed levels as Sars comes under control. But when and by how much is anyone's guess.
The prediction by SIA's recently retired chief executive officer Cheong Choong Kong is that full recovery may take up to two years.
The reason for this uncertainty is the psychological change in travel patterns in Asia, similar to that seen post-Sept 11, said investment bank JP Morgan's Hongkong-based regional airline analyst, Mr Peter Negline.
'Post-Sept 11, the revenue dynamic changed dramatically,' the analyst, who has been tracking the industry for a decade, told Insight.
In the US, and to some extent in Europe, a portion of discretionary travel - which comes from people's urge to take off on a whim to far-flung places - disappeared permanently.
'There is a deterioration in the appeal of air travel...in the US, the security and inconvenience mean it is no longer a relaxing experience.
'Post-Sars, I think we will go through a similar psychological change in travel patterns here in Asia,' he said.
POST-SARS EFFECT
WHILE airlines cannot control when passenger traffic will return, they can coax people to take to the skies again by working with governments and tourism bodies.
And so in Singapore and Hong Kong, thermal scanners have been installed at airports to ensure passengers are fever-free before they can board an aircraft. The machines serve another purpose: assuage fears that the disease may be contracted in a plane.
The Pacific Asia Travel Association (Pata) and Iata are also banding together to work on a marketing campaign to rebuild passenger confidence.
The efficacy of these enticements remains to be seen.
Meanwhile, since airlines cannot dictate their revenue, all they can do is to control costs.
'While you are waiting around for your revenue to recover, you must be as pro-active on your cost base as you can,' said Mr Negline.
SIA got its entire cabin crew to take seven days of no-pay leave every two months starting this month to save $14 million. Its 240 members of management will take pay cuts of between 22.5 per cent and 27.5 per cent from next month, saving the airline another $12 million.
However, these cuts amount to a mere 'drop in the ocean', said UOB-Kay Hian associate research director Peggy Mak. The airline's wage bill - its second largest cost component after fuel - for the year ended March this year came up to $1.4 billion, increasing by a quarter from the previous year. The reason is mainly the 3.23 months of profit-sharing bonus given to staff.
SIA's incoming chief executive, Mr Chew Choon Seng, has said the airline intends to slash staff-related costs by more than $200 million or some 14 per cent.
A key to that is to shrink the wage bill of the pilots, who make up 12 per cent of the airline's total staff, but account for almost a third of the total wage bill. SIA wants wage cuts of up to 22.5 per cent for the pilots plus compulsory no-pay leave.
Negotiations, however, with the pilots' union - the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (Alpa-S) - have reached a stalemate. The two sides are squabbling over the issue of SIA's 120 overseas-based pilots.
Alpa-S, which represents about 1,600 of SIA's 1,800 pilots, wants the airline to axe these pilots first before they will take a wage cut. They also argue that those based overseas have all along been given preferential treatment.
SIA, however, insists that these pilots, based in London, Los Angeles, Perth and Sydney, are all its employees even though they are technically employed by its wholly-owned subsidiary SIA Mauritius.
As a global company, it has to treat its employees equally. Otherwise the carrier, which derives 80 per cent of its income from outside Singapore, may find itself shunned by travellers unhappy with its discriminatory labour practices, it explained.
SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.
SIA is also proposing a 15-per-cent across-the-board wage cut for the rest of its 14,600 staff, but unions first want a reassurance that the cuts will be restored. Negotiations are still ongoing.
While the cuts are for immediate relief, it is clear also that they tie with the airline's moves to overhaul its seniority-based wage system and move towards a more performance-linked pay structure, in line with the National Wages Council's call.
The above is part of the article as published, the complete article can be seen below ..... if you can be bothered reading it !
http://www.straitstimes.com.sg/singa...92051,00.html?
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It's Just a Typo Lah!
Quote
SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.
Unquote
Gentlemen,
If you keep your thinking caps on you will realise the part about $800,000 should read HKD800,000. If not the entire paragraph does not make sense. Such typos occur at least once every other day in the on-line edition of the Straits Times, particularly with currency conversions. It's quite harmess. If you read without thinking, too bad for you.
It's just like a loadsheet lbs-to-kg conversion error, an error not made with the intention of killing you. I think the noise surrounding the issue has made at least one person defensive and bristling with sensitivity.
SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.
Unquote
Gentlemen,
If you keep your thinking caps on you will realise the part about $800,000 should read HKD800,000. If not the entire paragraph does not make sense. Such typos occur at least once every other day in the on-line edition of the Straits Times, particularly with currency conversions. It's quite harmess. If you read without thinking, too bad for you.
It's just like a loadsheet lbs-to-kg conversion error, an error not made with the intention of killing you. I think the noise surrounding the issue has made at least one person defensive and bristling with sensitivity.
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I wouldn't be surprised if that typoerror was made on purpose. Don't forget that the Singaporian public is not known for critical reading. the coffeshop talk is now: " OK lah why pilots make trouble lah, they still earn $620.000 after salary cut." The type error might not be an error.
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John Barnes,
>>I wouldn't be surprised if that typoerror was made on purpose.
You are entitled to your own paranoid opinions.
>>Don't forget that the Singaporian public is not known for critical reading.
No. YOU have just demonstrated your less than critical reading abilities. To make a leap of logic and suggest that "the Singaporian (sic) public" is also like you, well, that's a bit tenuous.
>>the coffeshop talk is now: " OK lah why pilots make trouble lah, they still earn $620.000 after salary cut." The type error might not be an error.
Please continue with your silly claims and broken logic. If nothing more it's quite entertaining. After all, it shouldn't be long until mid 2004 when you leave.
You might be the first to be "offered" early retirement.
>>I wouldn't be surprised if that typoerror was made on purpose.
You are entitled to your own paranoid opinions.
>>Don't forget that the Singaporian public is not known for critical reading.
No. YOU have just demonstrated your less than critical reading abilities. To make a leap of logic and suggest that "the Singaporian (sic) public" is also like you, well, that's a bit tenuous.
>>the coffeshop talk is now: " OK lah why pilots make trouble lah, they still earn $620.000 after salary cut." The type error might not be an error.
Please continue with your silly claims and broken logic. If nothing more it's quite entertaining. After all, it shouldn't be long until mid 2004 when you leave.
You might be the first to be "offered" early retirement.
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Thermal Image,
Even if it were a typo ( which I doubt was accidental ), she is still trying to compare top SQ salaries to average CX salaries. If she bothered to do it correctly, we all know how the comparison would really look. If we are to use the salaries of SQ pilots fortunate to be around when yearly increments were more generous, we must also compare these to CX A scale. NO CONTEST!
Even if it were a typo ( which I doubt was accidental ), she is still trying to compare top SQ salaries to average CX salaries. If she bothered to do it correctly, we all know how the comparison would really look. If we are to use the salaries of SQ pilots fortunate to be around when yearly increments were more generous, we must also compare these to CX A scale. NO CONTEST!
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My thermal friend are you now telling me that I can fly after 60. I hoped to retire to the green green fields in November 2003 when my licence expires. But you might know something that I don't know, so please fill me in.
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Thermal Image likens a ' jack hammer operator '.... concentrating on making holes but unable to hear and take in what the surrounding is saying.
A few simple facts remains :
1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.
2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.
3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.
4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !
5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???
6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )
WATCH OUT !!!There seems to be also a ' Quick-draw DEAF McGraw ' running loose !!!
A few simple facts remains :
1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.
2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.
3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.
4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !
5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???
6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )
WATCH OUT !!!There seems to be also a ' Quick-draw DEAF McGraw ' running loose !!!
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Leaving us earlier then?
John Barnes,
You may remember on 17 Dec 2002 1822hrs you posted:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...142#post718142
Quote
I am at the point, with three basechecks to go, that I don't give a F*** if they fire me or not.
Unquote
From your own words, as of 17 Dec 2002, you had 3 basechecks left. Even if your next basecheck was the very next day on 18 Dec, with 2 to go you would be current until mid 2004. Which is why I thought you would leave then.
Now you say that you will retire in Nov 2003. If true, it would seem that SIA has been generous in scheduling basechecks for you.
Thank you for correcting my mistake and for more information about yourself.
B Swan:
Welcome to PPRuNe; starting off your first post with a bang and much punctuation all can see. I hope you are not "tired and emotional". Allow me to respond to each point in turn.
1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.
OBS pilots as well as ANY direct entry captains are recruited simply because we cannot produce enough captains. Yes, they are cheaper than SIN-based expats, as well as senior locals (I'll come to that later).
2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.
What about the direct-entry pilots on local terms (ex-MAS etc) who were hired at the time the OBS was started? Were they hired not because of "demand" (as you say) also? So if there is a surplus, should they also not be counted together with the OBS pilots? So why merely single out the OBS pilots and conveniently forget the direct-entry locals?
3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.
This is to drive home the point that it is not a clear cut situation of wanting to remove costly expats, more well paid than ANY local, which would then not have raised such a stink if it were so. And BTW, he does earn more than merely ONE OBS pilot.
4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !
Please show me some airlines which have a separate payscale for "senior" line pilots, without other duties such as training or management . If SIA or ALPA-S thought it necessary to create such a category to reward them for their valuable "experience" it would have done so. Please show concrete evidence to show that such experienced pilots either boost bottom line figures or at least contribute measurably to flight safety. From SIA's viewpoint, once you are qualified for solo operations, it means you can do your job safely enough, just as the most senior line pilot is safe enough. Like I have said before in another post, pilots retire, the airline chugs on. No big deal. And BTW, I did say categorise them by appointment and then salary, ie line captains one group, instructors one group etc. In other words, by merit and then by pay. Not simply by pay alone.
5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???
If your OBS colleague decides for himself what he wants to accept, quickly enough, why begrudge that reality? If someone rubbed your nose in it, well, it wasn't me. What is your point? It is ALPA-S who wants them booted out, so how can that be, as you say, "fair and equal pain"?
6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )
Aiya, back to this issue, if you read the offending paragraph but with the HKD in place, then it make sense. As to where she got the numbers from, the basis of comparison etc why not just wait for her to issue a clarification as to what she really meant? To base an entire page of argument on speculation as to what she meant to say is a waste of my time.
And to think that anyone with basic reading and arithmetic ability could conclude that $10,000-$19,500 a month, annualised, suddenly adds up to more than $800,000 (without the HKD) is, well, insulting to that person. Don't claim that you are upset because you think that the public could be misled by such numbers. Could it be that you are upset because you are already defensive that the same people feel that you earn too much in the first place? Otherwise why get all hot and bothered about a mistake like that? It's not going to kill anyone.
It's a free market out there. If someone wants to work the same job as you for more hours and less money, then too bad if you feel threatened. It must be because you have something to lose. Are you not able to be better than them by adding more value (that SIA can acknowledge) to your work? That'd be much more constructive than wanting to sack them.
You may remember on 17 Dec 2002 1822hrs you posted:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...142#post718142
Quote
I am at the point, with three basechecks to go, that I don't give a F*** if they fire me or not.
Unquote
From your own words, as of 17 Dec 2002, you had 3 basechecks left. Even if your next basecheck was the very next day on 18 Dec, with 2 to go you would be current until mid 2004. Which is why I thought you would leave then.
Now you say that you will retire in Nov 2003. If true, it would seem that SIA has been generous in scheduling basechecks for you.
Thank you for correcting my mistake and for more information about yourself.
B Swan:
Welcome to PPRuNe; starting off your first post with a bang and much punctuation all can see. I hope you are not "tired and emotional". Allow me to respond to each point in turn.
1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.
OBS pilots as well as ANY direct entry captains are recruited simply because we cannot produce enough captains. Yes, they are cheaper than SIN-based expats, as well as senior locals (I'll come to that later).
2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.
What about the direct-entry pilots on local terms (ex-MAS etc) who were hired at the time the OBS was started? Were they hired not because of "demand" (as you say) also? So if there is a surplus, should they also not be counted together with the OBS pilots? So why merely single out the OBS pilots and conveniently forget the direct-entry locals?
3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.
This is to drive home the point that it is not a clear cut situation of wanting to remove costly expats, more well paid than ANY local, which would then not have raised such a stink if it were so. And BTW, he does earn more than merely ONE OBS pilot.
4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !
Please show me some airlines which have a separate payscale for "senior" line pilots, without other duties such as training or management . If SIA or ALPA-S thought it necessary to create such a category to reward them for their valuable "experience" it would have done so. Please show concrete evidence to show that such experienced pilots either boost bottom line figures or at least contribute measurably to flight safety. From SIA's viewpoint, once you are qualified for solo operations, it means you can do your job safely enough, just as the most senior line pilot is safe enough. Like I have said before in another post, pilots retire, the airline chugs on. No big deal. And BTW, I did say categorise them by appointment and then salary, ie line captains one group, instructors one group etc. In other words, by merit and then by pay. Not simply by pay alone.
5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???
If your OBS colleague decides for himself what he wants to accept, quickly enough, why begrudge that reality? If someone rubbed your nose in it, well, it wasn't me. What is your point? It is ALPA-S who wants them booted out, so how can that be, as you say, "fair and equal pain"?
6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )
Aiya, back to this issue, if you read the offending paragraph but with the HKD in place, then it make sense. As to where she got the numbers from, the basis of comparison etc why not just wait for her to issue a clarification as to what she really meant? To base an entire page of argument on speculation as to what she meant to say is a waste of my time.
And to think that anyone with basic reading and arithmetic ability could conclude that $10,000-$19,500 a month, annualised, suddenly adds up to more than $800,000 (without the HKD) is, well, insulting to that person. Don't claim that you are upset because you think that the public could be misled by such numbers. Could it be that you are upset because you are already defensive that the same people feel that you earn too much in the first place? Otherwise why get all hot and bothered about a mistake like that? It's not going to kill anyone.
It's a free market out there. If someone wants to work the same job as you for more hours and less money, then too bad if you feel threatened. It must be because you have something to lose. Are you not able to be better than them by adding more value (that SIA can acknowledge) to your work? That'd be much more constructive than wanting to sack them.
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Gentlemen,
The fact remains that as Expatriates, hired guns, mercenaries or whatever else we choose to call ourselves or prefer to be addressed as, security of tenure is negligible. One would have thought that an assessment and alternative plans had been made prior to accepting expatriate term employment with a foreign carrier.
Naturally, the Singapore based crews want the foreign overseas based pilots released first, so as the cushion the impact of the imminent salary reductions.
Could you, hand on heart, honestly say that if you were in the same position with your national flag carrier and facing personal financial purgatory, not be doing the same thing?
The fact remains that as Expatriates, hired guns, mercenaries or whatever else we choose to call ourselves or prefer to be addressed as, security of tenure is negligible. One would have thought that an assessment and alternative plans had been made prior to accepting expatriate term employment with a foreign carrier.
Naturally, the Singapore based crews want the foreign overseas based pilots released first, so as the cushion the impact of the imminent salary reductions.
Could you, hand on heart, honestly say that if you were in the same position with your national flag carrier and facing personal financial purgatory, not be doing the same thing?
Last edited by kineticknife; 1st Jun 2003 at 20:57.
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kineticknife
Of course all pilots accepting contracts here examine the terms carefully before they sign. The SIA contract is poor basic pay (by international wide body standards) but acceptable to those that agree to come here because pay is not so bad if you fly 70+ hours and bonus history suggests 3 months on average.
Nowhere does the contract suggest that you only get your basic pay if the company makes a profit above a certain level. Neither does it suggest that the Company will ignore the agreement when it suites and force pay down to reduce losses that are in no way connected to individual performance in the job.
Any company has the right to change the terms of a future contract. Thus SIA and ALPA-S will have to agree on the terms of the next agreement due in December. If there is a requirement for a change in the pay structure to go along with a declared government policy then that is the place and time to address these issues. Similarly, SIA has every right to change the terms of new contracts or renewed contracts because the person involved has the free choice to accept or reject that contract. What is unreasonable is to change a current contract that the individual has no option to refuse because he is bonded and even less able to clear the bond because his earnings are being reduced.
The talk of getting rid of overseas based pilots is irrelevant. I agree that if the company wants to reduce pilot numbers then overseas based should go first, followed by expats in Singapore and lastly nationals. Nobody can seriously argue with that and it would be the same with any airline anywhere in the world.
The point is that SIA are not really interested in saving money here. They can sack 120 overseas pilots with 3 months notice and do that. What they are after is to reduce the pay of all of their pilots and keep it there . They must be delighted that attention is drawn away from that by all this talk of getting rid of OSB pilots. This has allowed them to claim some virtue in the press by saying "we are fair and responsible, we treat all of our employees equally".
All SIA pilots, be they ALPA-S members, OBS, expat or even management pilots should demand that whatever measures are taken should be agreed under the terms of the agreements and contracts that are presently in place. If a saving of 22.5% is needed then make it 22.5%. Don't add on NPL and reduced flying hours to make it a real 38%.
If SIA have to go a few hundred million dollars into the red for once so be it. How many other major airlines have never had to do that? When SIA is one billion in profit you don't hear the staff saying "hey, we need to talk about more pay". Why not? Because the Company would say, quite rightly " sorry guys we have an agreement that is in place till xxxx. We'll talk when we negotiate the next agreement"
How come it doesn't work the same way when the boot is on the other foot?
Of course all pilots accepting contracts here examine the terms carefully before they sign. The SIA contract is poor basic pay (by international wide body standards) but acceptable to those that agree to come here because pay is not so bad if you fly 70+ hours and bonus history suggests 3 months on average.
Nowhere does the contract suggest that you only get your basic pay if the company makes a profit above a certain level. Neither does it suggest that the Company will ignore the agreement when it suites and force pay down to reduce losses that are in no way connected to individual performance in the job.
Any company has the right to change the terms of a future contract. Thus SIA and ALPA-S will have to agree on the terms of the next agreement due in December. If there is a requirement for a change in the pay structure to go along with a declared government policy then that is the place and time to address these issues. Similarly, SIA has every right to change the terms of new contracts or renewed contracts because the person involved has the free choice to accept or reject that contract. What is unreasonable is to change a current contract that the individual has no option to refuse because he is bonded and even less able to clear the bond because his earnings are being reduced.
The talk of getting rid of overseas based pilots is irrelevant. I agree that if the company wants to reduce pilot numbers then overseas based should go first, followed by expats in Singapore and lastly nationals. Nobody can seriously argue with that and it would be the same with any airline anywhere in the world.
The point is that SIA are not really interested in saving money here. They can sack 120 overseas pilots with 3 months notice and do that. What they are after is to reduce the pay of all of their pilots and keep it there . They must be delighted that attention is drawn away from that by all this talk of getting rid of OSB pilots. This has allowed them to claim some virtue in the press by saying "we are fair and responsible, we treat all of our employees equally".
All SIA pilots, be they ALPA-S members, OBS, expat or even management pilots should demand that whatever measures are taken should be agreed under the terms of the agreements and contracts that are presently in place. If a saving of 22.5% is needed then make it 22.5%. Don't add on NPL and reduced flying hours to make it a real 38%.
If SIA have to go a few hundred million dollars into the red for once so be it. How many other major airlines have never had to do that? When SIA is one billion in profit you don't hear the staff saying "hey, we need to talk about more pay". Why not? Because the Company would say, quite rightly " sorry guys we have an agreement that is in place till xxxx. We'll talk when we negotiate the next agreement"
How come it doesn't work the same way when the boot is on the other foot?
wotwazat,
Very good post, and one of the reasons it does not work when the boot is on the other foot is quite simply that it does not suite them and I think that your point about SIA not being interested in saving money, but rather to be able to reduce the salaries and keep them reduced is spot on.
I did not know whether to laugh or cry at the comment in the Strait Times that SQ pilots are better paid than CX pilots, and even if we put those magic 3 letters, HKG, the reporter has failed to mention the pension that a CX pilot will get after 15 years service. That statement was simply a plain lie designed to further swing the public perception of the SQ pilots being overpaid!
Very good post, and one of the reasons it does not work when the boot is on the other foot is quite simply that it does not suite them and I think that your point about SIA not being interested in saving money, but rather to be able to reduce the salaries and keep them reduced is spot on.
I did not know whether to laugh or cry at the comment in the Strait Times that SQ pilots are better paid than CX pilots, and even if we put those magic 3 letters, HKG, the reporter has failed to mention the pension that a CX pilot will get after 15 years service. That statement was simply a plain lie designed to further swing the public perception of the SQ pilots being overpaid!
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Wotwazat Very well written,well explained; However why does this not come out in the press so the world and the ordianry man in your country can understand what its all about?Time the ordianary guy on the streets know.
This message board is hardly known to exist outside the aviation community so it is time to take it around. Good Luck.
This message board is hardly known to exist outside the aviation community so it is time to take it around. Good Luck.
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Bluntly So
Pleased to say there has been some fairer reporting today, let's hope it keeps up. Can't imagine why the real figures have trouble making it to the press, you would have thought that the share holders would demand that the Company should avoid being seen to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, wouldn't you?
Minister of Transport has said today that one third of the cancelled flights should resume this month. Phew, thank goodness for that, panic over, the recovery has started and it's official. No need for any of this silly wrangling over pay and SIA can get back to being "the World's most profitable Airline" without taking the profit out of the pockets of it's staff.
Pleased to say there has been some fairer reporting today, let's hope it keeps up. Can't imagine why the real figures have trouble making it to the press, you would have thought that the share holders would demand that the Company should avoid being seen to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, wouldn't you?
Minister of Transport has said today that one third of the cancelled flights should resume this month. Phew, thank goodness for that, panic over, the recovery has started and it's official. No need for any of this silly wrangling over pay and SIA can get back to being "the World's most profitable Airline" without taking the profit out of the pockets of it's staff.
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SIA can re instate all cancelled services, but it wont stop the pay cut. As any schoolboy pilot knows, its yeild that counts to an airline, and quite frankly there's little of that floating around Asia.
Flying at around 35% load factor for SIA isnt good enough. Lets face it, years of boasing about their profit, and sneering at other airlines megre income have not put the airline in a particularly good light when they cry woolf.
Who cares about the profit ,if the airline is a centre of depressed pilots infighting amoung themselves about the usual racist issues. Sack the expats, cull the baseings, promote the local interest, hey nothings changed in 10 years. Different faces, same rhetoric. Like I read earlier from some disgruntled ex-Singapore expat , he'll mis the flying but not the job. As I've walked the walk...I can say yes, its was a job, but that was all. And the pay... dont make me laugh.... Has that '97 CPF cut been re-instated yet?
Flying at around 35% load factor for SIA isnt good enough. Lets face it, years of boasing about their profit, and sneering at other airlines megre income have not put the airline in a particularly good light when they cry woolf.
Who cares about the profit ,if the airline is a centre of depressed pilots infighting amoung themselves about the usual racist issues. Sack the expats, cull the baseings, promote the local interest, hey nothings changed in 10 years. Different faces, same rhetoric. Like I read earlier from some disgruntled ex-Singapore expat , he'll mis the flying but not the job. As I've walked the walk...I can say yes, its was a job, but that was all. And the pay... dont make me laugh.... Has that '97 CPF cut been re-instated yet?
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Wilco 77
Are you Austrian and do you have a shortly trimmed moustache?
Lets just get all the expat pilots around the world to stop flying for one day shall we and see what chaos results?
I hope I never have to fly with an inferiority complexed xenephobe such as yourself.
Are you Austrian and do you have a shortly trimmed moustache?
Lets just get all the expat pilots around the world to stop flying for one day shall we and see what chaos results?
I hope I never have to fly with an inferiority complexed xenephobe such as yourself.
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millerscourt for SIA Locals or Expat don't matter, its the "money honey" where it comes from is not important....
Today's news is that the SIA will hand over the "PINK SLIPS" to the ground staff. It has finalised the names of about 500 ground staff, about 150 from SIA and others from its subsidiaries. Number of Pilots and cabin crew to be retrenched are in the pipe-line. But is it really required in a company like SIA which has been making money right from the first day of operation. Or does it mean the core values of SIA are only on paper. In my opinion
Any organisation's leadership philosophy should be to manage in good times so that the company and its people can be job-secure and prosper through bad times.
But I don't think it works here in SIA. SIA philosophy is to suck the blood of its employee's till the last drop, pay them the least in the industry. Further whenever any kind of disaster (Nature or man inflicted) strikes anywhere in the world, how SIA can benefit from it. That is the main reason why it is called a global company.
Today's news is that the SIA will hand over the "PINK SLIPS" to the ground staff. It has finalised the names of about 500 ground staff, about 150 from SIA and others from its subsidiaries. Number of Pilots and cabin crew to be retrenched are in the pipe-line. But is it really required in a company like SIA which has been making money right from the first day of operation. Or does it mean the core values of SIA are only on paper. In my opinion
Any organisation's leadership philosophy should be to manage in good times so that the company and its people can be job-secure and prosper through bad times.
But I don't think it works here in SIA. SIA philosophy is to suck the blood of its employee's till the last drop, pay them the least in the industry. Further whenever any kind of disaster (Nature or man inflicted) strikes anywhere in the world, how SIA can benefit from it. That is the main reason why it is called a global company.