Philippine info wanted: comm float ops
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Philippine info wanted: comm float ops
I'm having a tough time getting information on starting a Caravan Amphib sched operation out of Manila. Specifically: max pax capacity under their regs (VFR and IFR), import taxes on aircraft and parts, IFR regs for S/E turbine a/c, and just some general aviation topics such as currency reqmnts, publications used for field info, licensing requirements and so on. And yes, I am legal to own a business and work in the Philippines, so don't worry about that. If there is anyone here that could point me to someone who has this info, it would be appreciated. I've tried the Philippine DOT and other operators and they are very unhelpful. Thanks....
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It just wont happen unless you know the right people. I have looked into it very closely and have been advised by people in the know that it is almost impossible unless you have an in through the right people. I was fortunate enough to ferry a lighty up there from West Oz last november and got to meet some of the right people, but it is still very dificult as they are a bit toey about foriegners flying around their country. I will pursue the same idea as you, but next time I go over there I will make a concerted effort to meet the right folk faster. you really have to be there to make contacts, and you will eventually make them, it just takes time and being there. I wanna retire there one day, Its a great place, and probably one of the nicest places in the world to do what you are thinking of doing.
I will dig around in my flight bag and see if I can come up with some names and phone numbers for ya. (see!, your making contacts already, and thats what its all about over there.)
I will dig around in my flight bag and see if I can come up with some names and phone numbers for ya. (see!, your making contacts already, and thats what its all about over there.)
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A hard road to plow you have chosen. There is a crowd operating a float out of a hangar near Cubi point but they don't seem to get too busy.
I would think that getting to know some of the folks in the ATO (Aviation Transportation Office) and over at the ASG (Aviation Security Group) would be a good idea, be prepared to be frustrated though as dealing with those guys makes you pull your hair out!!
My mate was a check pilot for one of the float flying crowd once upon a time and in the end they simply made it too difficult for him so he bailed, but you don't know unless....... Good luck!
I would think that getting to know some of the folks in the ATO (Aviation Transportation Office) and over at the ASG (Aviation Security Group) would be a good idea, be prepared to be frustrated though as dealing with those guys makes you pull your hair out!!
My mate was a check pilot for one of the float flying crowd once upon a time and in the end they simply made it too difficult for him so he bailed, but you don't know unless....... Good luck!
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Philippines Info
Thanks for all your input. It's really appreciated. I met the Deputy Director of the Philippines ATO today at an ICAO conference in Montreal. Actually a very friendly, helpful guy. There were several main issues. A Caravan Amphib would need permission to use the harbour at Boracay for movement, and this puts you at the mercy of the local municipal council for permission. This council knows you are dependent on them and that you are a foreigner operating a million dollar plane. See the problem?? ICAO protects users from unfair pricing but only at registered airports. Therefore, float ops are regulated at the discretion of local, elected authorities. Here in Canada, the council understands that increased tourism results in revenues through taxes. But in the Philippines, I found that the prevalent attitude was far more short-sighted and the desire to line your own pockets was more pressing than the municipal coffers.
Second was the import taxes on aircraft. Add in tax on parts and it gets expensive. Next was the immigration issues. There appears to be an incredible bureaucracy built around the Department of Labour. There was a strong possibility of not getting permission for a permit to do the pilot duties, and hiring a local to shadow me as an understudy in the management. Not to mention the difficulty in hiring foreigners to help me when if I couldn't find qualified talent locally. He suggested to start off as partners with a local operator for an AOC for sched ops as the approval can take 2 years to be issued and needs an Act of Congress, as well as public hearings. In so many words, only the wealthy and connected need apply. You also have to look at the security issues, as you are dependent on foreigners who are very sensitive to violence, and the Abu Sayaf issue remains outstanding. Just look at what happenned in Bali.
Last, I compared prices that existing operators are charging and they are already at very low to no margins for profit. As I would expect a significant profit to compensate myself for all this added risk, the end result is that I learned a lot about the process but the payoff just isn't there assuming I was finally successful. I can make more money for far less effort in Florida and the Carribean with exactly the same type of operation. I guess in the end, you have to believe that the Philippines is poverty striken for a reason. When an outside investor like myself finds so many barriers, I'll take my money elsewhere. Multipy my situation times all the other investors like myself, and their economic problems become apparent very quickly. Thanks for all your replies, and I'm just fortunate that I did the research early enough before I got in too deep and lost a lot of money.
Second was the import taxes on aircraft. Add in tax on parts and it gets expensive. Next was the immigration issues. There appears to be an incredible bureaucracy built around the Department of Labour. There was a strong possibility of not getting permission for a permit to do the pilot duties, and hiring a local to shadow me as an understudy in the management. Not to mention the difficulty in hiring foreigners to help me when if I couldn't find qualified talent locally. He suggested to start off as partners with a local operator for an AOC for sched ops as the approval can take 2 years to be issued and needs an Act of Congress, as well as public hearings. In so many words, only the wealthy and connected need apply. You also have to look at the security issues, as you are dependent on foreigners who are very sensitive to violence, and the Abu Sayaf issue remains outstanding. Just look at what happenned in Bali.
Last, I compared prices that existing operators are charging and they are already at very low to no margins for profit. As I would expect a significant profit to compensate myself for all this added risk, the end result is that I learned a lot about the process but the payoff just isn't there assuming I was finally successful. I can make more money for far less effort in Florida and the Carribean with exactly the same type of operation. I guess in the end, you have to believe that the Philippines is poverty striken for a reason. When an outside investor like myself finds so many barriers, I'll take my money elsewhere. Multipy my situation times all the other investors like myself, and their economic problems become apparent very quickly. Thanks for all your replies, and I'm just fortunate that I did the research early enough before I got in too deep and lost a lot of money.
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Yep good thing you did the research for sure. You would be amazed at the amount of people who leap in with rose coloured glasses on and then after they have done all the hard work find out the "paperwork" isn't in order.... As for inporting of AC have a gekko at the C206 with Aussie tags gathering dust up in Angeles city, thats the result of a "paperwork" issue.
(on a non related issue to prove that the big boys can get it wrong as well Carrefour the big supermarket crowd opened a huge store in Shenzhen China and forgot to get a licence to operate!!)
Still it ain't all that bad, better here than freezing somehere else.
(on a non related issue to prove that the big boys can get it wrong as well Carrefour the big supermarket crowd opened a huge store in Shenzhen China and forgot to get a licence to operate!!)
Still it ain't all that bad, better here than freezing somehere else.
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AAAAH, mate, your on to it. like i said, its who ya know. I was made a very nice offer to do something very similar to what you are thinking of doing, but you have to have lunch with the right people. Yes, the average local is broke, as are the local operators, but there is more money in some of the office blocks in Pasig than you or I could ever imagine. I had a few meetings with some very nice people over there, and it actually shocked me as to what was available for the right sum of Pasoes to the right person. Money aint a problem over there if you make the right contacts. If ya wanna look at not making the right contacts and trying to do it the way its meant to be done, have a quick gander at the super connie over near the Delta hangar in Manila.
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Hey Wizard,
You are right there, that Super Connie brings tears to the eyes for sure. I heard that it was bought as part of a cargo (seafood?) op and they had fuel "payment" problems or something, I'm not sure. Suffice to say a damn shame what ever the reason.
You are right there, that Super Connie brings tears to the eyes for sure. I heard that it was bought as part of a cargo (seafood?) op and they had fuel "payment" problems or something, I'm not sure. Suffice to say a damn shame what ever the reason.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
And just to meet the right contact, expect to fork out USD10k!!
And that's only just the beginning.
Helps one understand why the Phils is where it is.
As someone told me, when Marcos was in power, the corruption was mainly only at the upper levels - after he was removed, it infiltrated ALL levels.
Such a shame for a beautiful country with beautiful people.
And that's only just the beginning.
Helps one understand why the Phils is where it is.
As someone told me, when Marcos was in power, the corruption was mainly only at the upper levels - after he was removed, it infiltrated ALL levels.
Such a shame for a beautiful country with beautiful people.
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It is a top spot and the people are bloody great (well the ones that dont want to shoot you in the face anyway), the trick is to start at the top and avoid having to deal with the people at the lower end of authority (they are more expensive than the boss people sometimes). an introduction through a person that is friends with em or something like that will work (worked for me).
I was drinking coffee with people that turned out to be multi millionaires and i didnt know it untill the offers were made. then through them I met some very very influentual government officials who garenteed me some very nice paper work and even possible contracts. a huge contrast when you go down stairs and buy a feed from the vending cart in the ally way next to the emerald building in ortagus.
I was drinking coffee with people that turned out to be multi millionaires and i didnt know it untill the offers were made. then through them I met some very very influentual government officials who garenteed me some very nice paper work and even possible contracts. a huge contrast when you go down stairs and buy a feed from the vending cart in the ally way next to the emerald building in ortagus.
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Philippines info
I suppose when it comes down to it, there is a reason why the Philippines is so poverty striken. If there are no established parameters for conducting business other than paying money for possible "contact" info, why would someone choose to invest there if the return was no better than in the U.S., Australia, or any other country? It's such a shame as the local Philippine population could benefit so much from direct foreign investment and foreign workers who could bring their productive work habits and business skills. Unfortunately, this would be at the expense of established Filipino enterprises closing down so I don't see it ever happenning.
I still see my idea as sound; bypassing Caticlan and the boat ride to Boracay for direct flights in an air-conditioned, leather seat, turbine aircraft with large viewing windows for picture taking. But when I considered all the unknowns and expense in setting up this operation for the privelege of charging 2500 Pesos per head, there's no worthwhile return. I've got very good contacts now for the same idea out of Miami into the Carribean, and the contrast between the Philippines is amazing. 7 day processing time for a 6 year working visa, easy access to capital, very low taxes, and no corruption that I've seen yet. No foreign currency risks, and all sales in U.S. dollars. Plus an affluent, mobile population.
I think for myself, what attracted me to the Philippines was the challenge in using Canadian business skills in a third world to prove to myself that I could make a flying business a success there against all odds. Just to be able to shove it in the face of all those Filipino businessmen who control the wealth and would hate to see a Canadian succeed in their own country. So its on to better things hopefully, and thanks for all your input.
I still see my idea as sound; bypassing Caticlan and the boat ride to Boracay for direct flights in an air-conditioned, leather seat, turbine aircraft with large viewing windows for picture taking. But when I considered all the unknowns and expense in setting up this operation for the privelege of charging 2500 Pesos per head, there's no worthwhile return. I've got very good contacts now for the same idea out of Miami into the Carribean, and the contrast between the Philippines is amazing. 7 day processing time for a 6 year working visa, easy access to capital, very low taxes, and no corruption that I've seen yet. No foreign currency risks, and all sales in U.S. dollars. Plus an affluent, mobile population.
I think for myself, what attracted me to the Philippines was the challenge in using Canadian business skills in a third world to prove to myself that I could make a flying business a success there against all odds. Just to be able to shove it in the face of all those Filipino businessmen who control the wealth and would hate to see a Canadian succeed in their own country. So its on to better things hopefully, and thanks for all your input.
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if there is a will, there is a way... just make sure you get a special investors visa. that is step 1. step 2, look for nice people, not nice looking people... crocs abound in these parts. be careful.
ask wizard, i belive he met a few nice people in mactan..
ask wizard, i belive he met a few nice people in mactan..
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As Bisaya says, look for nice people. the people at the Philippine flyers in Cebu are very nice people.......... But go to the other side of the airport and its a differant story altogether.( be very carefull about parking.... the weight gradiant starts at 0 to 50000kgs and is very expensive, and they charge in half hour blocks. also dont upset the customs guys when they aare ripping you off....... they have MP5 machine gun toteing mates with very pointy barrels that they will poke into your armpit at the slightest provocation).
Hiya Bisaya, how are ya mate?.
Hiya Bisaya, how are ya mate?.
