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Going to China on A320 with family

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Old 18th Dec 2018, 02:04
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Angel Going to China on A320 with family

Hi there once again,since i keep getting questions about how it was there...here you go

after having read "Flying Upside Down"and having laughed my arse out i can tell you,having been there, that is all true and by all means!!!!

My 2 cents about going to the dragon's land working for Hainan,BCA or one of their subsidiaries.

Good:

Whatever is advertised about money it is true,money is good. Some cities and places in China are really nice and the general concept that the place is bad and polluted is no longer true,at least on the east coast.

Bad:
Company culture is really bad,working environment is not healthy at all.Backstabbing is normal business.
The company will own every single minute of your life.That means You will have a weekly roster with 36 hours rest in 7 days.

You will fly 95 hours a month with no off days fairly distributed to allow you a minimum of social life. Crew control will give you as many flights as possible to make you fly up to the maximum per week.

You will see your family for few hours early in the morning or in the afternoon for 6 days a week, forcing yourself to sleep few hours after a night flight to be able to enjoy your loved ones .
Company meetings with attendance recorded, if you don't go expect something.

You could be sent for 5 to10 days a month to fly from another base because again you get paid a lot of money so they own you and they must keep you busy.

If you are about to reach the maximum hours during the 3 months period they will give you all short flights instead of long ones just not to give you more days off.

Flying in China is very easy gents, you always get a lot of fuel and as soon as some weather appears they will start including at least 1 hour of extra fuel on your flight plan.

You will be flying many times 5 , 8000 feet below your cruising level because of atc restrictions.

The bad side is that you will get massive delays during summer and your roster will not be changed next day.

Most likely they will move your next check in time to make you legal to fly your next duty and if you report to crew control that you are tired, they will tell you that they have no crew to cover your flight.

Most of the FO's do not speak English and will try(right try) to act as pic just because the company told them not to trust you,then they screw up and it will be on you since they will lie to the management to make you accountable for what happened

Sim and flight training:There is no standardization among most of the instructors. Each instructor has his own way and there is no feedback during your training because nobody speaks english so you sit down start playing the video game until it ends and see how it goes.

Line training: the instructor switched the bloody wx radar off during approach with bad weather beside the airport "because wx radar is not healthy"

Just for the airbus guys...with a "terrain ahead pull up"warning triggered in IMC at night and memory item applied the instructor said that i should have disregarded it because i had a map shift...

The strategy is to put as many failures as possible with a lot of xwind and turbulence to end up flying a holding pattern or a vor approach in alternate law or an ndb approach in direct law with30 knots xwind, wet runway and a gear collapsing as soon as you touch .

A lot of raw data flying but ask for radar vectors and they will not give it to you.
If you come from a flying background were you had a lot of manual flying and a good instrument flying you will have no problems at all.

The sim can be used as a way to kick you out or punishment in case you did something bad like refusing a flight after a long duty ,not attending company meetings,anything which the base managers think could be a threat to their positions etc.
The company way of thinking ,according to the hundreds of email you get every week, is that since you get paid a lot of money you must be always on the edge (random oral checks at the briefing room,first officers writing monthly reports about you and you name it.)

If you fail a sim, as per caac procedure, they will demote you as first officer with 40% pay cut for some time , then you will have to go for a captain sim check again.

My honest advise is do not trust them because they will never be straightforward.

They might not like you and keep you on training and training pay for ever until you realize that is better to leave.
We had guys who failed 3-4 times on training pay for one year,some of them decided to stay because money was still good.

If you hold a tre,tri or chief pilot position do not mention it on your application because you will be seen as a threat by local instructors and managers of your base and they will fail you anywhere during training.

Company attitude toward expats:A few people will like you and will be open minded. Most of the others for various reasons (money of course is one of them) don't want you there and will try everything to stab you so be careful.

Beware of most of first officers because they are the company eyes and ears, a few of them are honest and really nice to fly with. Since we learn from our mistakes my final advise is go there if you desperately need money, if you are either single or with no children or if you can hold your breath and work like a dog with no rights during your contract tenure.

One month on one month off is the best compromise at the moment for family guys but they can squeeze you more because since you will have one month off they can make you flying a lot more (270 hours in 90 days you do the math)

That's what i have seen folks, dignity and respect are priceless for me

Last edited by tommyknock; 23rd Oct 2019 at 05:49.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 09:22
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Thanks for taking the time to write a well-balanced assessment. As someone considering working over there, this kind of feedback is invaluable to me and others.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 09:29
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To me one thing is difficult to understand: even if you made 30k net a month from day 1 (which you do not), let’s say you are 35 and you live this life for 10 years (!) It’s still not even close enough to retire.
So given most people seem not interested in integrating at all, my honest question is why do it?
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 10:55
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Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
To me one thing is difficult to understand: even if you made 30k net a month from day 1 (which you do not), let’s say you are 35 and you live this life for 10 years (!) It’s still not even close enough to retire.
So given most people seem not interested in integrating at all, my honest question is why do it?
IF you could put away $20k per month for 10 years and earn 8% p.a. on your investments you'd have $3.6m at the end of 10 years. If you can't retire on that you'll literally never retire.

Having said that, sticking it out in china for 10 years would be an extraordinary feat.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 11:00
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I'm no mathematician but surely 30k net per month (closer to 25k in reality) will leave you with more money than staying in Europe earning 8k net per month. Not many people retire at age 45 but if that's your goal you're in the wrong job.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 14:31
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thanks for the write-up

that's really useful and insightful
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Old 25th Dec 2018, 23:17
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I would be interested in knowing how long the average ex pat pilot lasts in a Chinese flying job and factor that into my financial plan. I’d be interested in giving it 3 years at the end of a flying career, if only for the life experience.
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Old 26th Dec 2018, 07:11
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I would be interested in knowing how long the average ex pat pilot lasts in a Chinese flying job and factor that into my financial plan. I’d be interested in giving it 3 years at the end of a flying career, if only for the life experience.
it depends on your personal situation...,age,debts,aircraft,willing to swallow everything in the name of money,single or with family etc.
Going there too close to your retirement age would be a challenge for your caac medical check.
Merry Christmas
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 01:37
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
I would be interested in knowing how long the average ex pat pilot lasts in a Chinese flying job and factor that into my financial plan. I’d be interested in giving it 3 years at the end of a flying career, if only for the life experience.
The average is probably 2-3 years for pilot longevity The contracts are typically 3 years and then renewed if they like you, generally that happens but in some cases they won’t renew. I stayed 8 years and enjoyed where I lived, had a better atmosphere than the original poster but still huge issues and similar stories. You will never pass a medical if you go your last few years and try. They rarely interview guys over age 55 and to my knowledge nobody will ever pass the medical at that age, even rare to pass it beyond age 50. I made it until 54 then found a good gig outside of China and jumped on it. The money is as advertised but the pound of flesh and flying environment is difficult and challenging with very little support from management. You are paid well and expected to get the job done and then give 100% on days off with company meetings and training.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 20:37
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Originally Posted by tommyknock
Hi there once again,since i keep getting questions about how it was there...here you go

after having read "Flying Upside Down"and having laughed my arse out i can tell you,having been there, that is all true and by all means!!!!
I have some recollection that when the original Flying Upside Down was published, the author said there'd be a Volume 2. Has anyone seen it yet ?

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Old 11th Feb 2019, 21:10
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Haven't seen it, and I've been with Tianjin.
But while I left Tianjin and happily so I must say the book doesn't give a balanced picture. Yes the facts are mostly correct, but most extreme cases chosen which not many will encounter. I certainly didn't feel like "flying upside down".
​​But one aspect is true. They wrote, you don't believe the amount of pollution until you get there. I thought, well, can't be that bad. What do I say now? You have to see it to believe it. Open the curtains in the morning and stare into thick grey smog, leave your home and encounter smell like you've just put your head into a chimney.
I can add a scary story which can provide further insight. It's not mine, I can't verify it, but it seems reasonable. A British pilot bought some vegetables at a local market, stuff that is locally grown, and carried it back to Britain to have it analysed. Whether it was safe to eat.
Few days after he dropped it at the lab he called them to know results. To get abuses "come here and pick up that stuff" "why, can't you dispose it afters testing?" "With THAT levels of dioxin we're not allowed to bin it like rubiish, it has to be disposed of properly, your turn!!"
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 05:45
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Just to revive the post for the guys who are sending me PMs
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